[SA Chris]

good final, that

I'd have liked to see Janja doing W4, but the camera people had other ideas

Never mind, we got a good view of the men's finishing hold instead. Nice to see an old school figure of 4 effectively applied .

[ghisino]

Good commentary, I felt sorry for Nonaka not being awarded the match of one of the top holds cos she wasn't on the right bit of the sloper!

I thought this was very true. Especially as Shauna matched by placing her second hand over her first, which appeared to achieve no skin contact with the finishing hold because it was so small and enveloped. The rules just seem to suggest controlling the finishing hold with two hands without specifying skin contact. Could you match by touching your wrist? Seems a bit dodgy.

Simply saying that the climbers have been told about the finishing hold does not seem to be a good enough response. If there are repeated misunderstandings then the person doing the explaining or the format must take some responsibility.

Twice in two finals suggests a problem.

I think it is a routesetting issue.

The rule allows some flexibility and makes perfect sense in the case of a massive volume with an obvious, matchable hold on top of it.

In both recent episodes i wondered if marking the entire volume as top would have led to some other issue (mainly with taller climbers matching statically on a lower portion of it).
If this is the case, using a small screw on as top is a cheap solution - maybe they had time to find something better, maybe not.
If it is not the case, it is a geeky contrivance ("hey climber, did you pay attention to how us routesetters taped the top?")

[Fiend]

Great final overall. Consistently entertaining problems (nice to have a few multiple methods), good filming, good having adjacent problems, decent commentary. Miho on W1 was a shame (agree some vagueness there that needs to be sorted), Jernej and Shauna simultaneously topping and celebrating P3 was great. Jain Fig4 and Chonwon super smooth on P4 too.

4min wasn't bad this time....it was even worse. This bullshit spoilt otherwise exciting attempts on P1, P2, and P3. If I wanted to watch speed climbing with climbers being hampered by rushing against the clock, I'd watch fucking speed climbing.

[Doug]

Times for this weekend's WC in Tokyo (based on IFSC website). It looks like the men and women's finals will run separately again, so we should see every problem in full.

Saturday 06th May
10:00-12:50 (UK time 02:00-04:50) Women Qualification
15:30-18:40 (UK time 07:30-10:40) Men Qualification

Sunday 07th May (LIVE)
09:00-11:15 (UK time 01:00-03:15) Men and Women Semi-Finals
14:30-15:50 (UK time 06:30-07:50) Women Finals
15:50-17:10 (UK time 07:50-09:10) Men Finals

IFSC Chief Route Setter: C. Danielson (USA)
IFSC Route Setters: L. Laporte (FRA), G. Hirashima (JPN)

[Durbs]

No takers for my wager?

Go on then, I'll take that action. A CAC shirt, bright pink - medium Let's hope Janja learns to read boulders and the setters set some hard moves.

Strong look. I feel they should do a wolf version.

I look forward to both a Shauna victory, and a lovely new orange t-shirt

You're going down etc. etc. 

[GraemeA]

Great final overall. Consistently entertaining problems (nice to have a few multiple methods), good filming, good having adjacent problems, decent commentary. Miho on W1 was a shame (agree some vagueness there that needs to be sorted), Jernej and Shauna simultaneously topping and celebrating P3 was great. Jain Fig4 and Chonwon super smooth on P4 too.

4min wasn't bad this time....it was even worse. This bullshit spoilt otherwise exciting attempts on P1, P2, and P3. If I wanted to watch speed climbing with climbers being hampered by rushing against the clock, I'd watch fucking speed climbing.

Which comp were you watching? Not the one I was at.

[ghisino]

The new time format clearly fixes the issue of slow problem finishes where a climber would be 99% sure to top given enough time, but doesn't fully commit to a partially reversible move.
The ability to commit quickly is emphasized, and things don't get boring.

In all other circumstances i'm not really sure it does anything good.

Maybe a longer countdown (30sec-20-10-5-4-3-2-1) could help to get more last-second tops and less "too late" attemps?

[Fiend]

Graeme: The recent Chinese one with a second Shauna crush. Pretty sure you were there?? Didn't you think it was great overall? Or the problems weren't as entertaining as before?

[GraemeA]

Graeme: The recent Chinese one with a second Shauna crush. Pretty sure you were there?? Didn't you think it was great overall? Or the problems weren't as entertaining as before?

Yes I was there. Can you go through each problem and justify why you say it was a disaster? And specifically say why the 4/4+ rule is at fault rather than anything else?

[r-man]

Graeme, any time a climber is on the problem but has to drop off due to time running out, or fumbles the moves because they are trying to go fast, that's not fun to watch. It happened several times in that comp.

There was already enough time pressure on the athletes with the 4+ rule. it seems a shame to make the clock even more important.

Some have argued that the new rule prevents boring moments where athletes take too long on the problems. Surely it's up to the route setters to control this. The odd occasion where someone finds an ingenious rest can be quite entertaining. I'd rather see people slowly battling up a problem than being forced to drop off.

There was one occasion in this comp where someone managed to scrape up to the top just before the clock ran out. This was a little bit exciting and the commentator tried to use it as justification for the merit of the 4min rule. I wasn't convinced, and I'm clearly not the only one.

--

I've always thought the 4+ rule was a great format. It's a rule that seems to have evolved to accommodate the spirit of bouldering, and to celebrate the one-last-go mentality that all climbers can relate to. I think this is also immediately understandable to non climbers. By contrast, imposing the 4min cut off seems very conformist, as though it's some sort of effort to make bouldering fit in with other sports. It's no wonder there is widespread outcry against this step. You don't make something better by taking away something that makes it special.

[BID]

Graeme, any time a climber is on the problem but has to drop off due to time running out, or fumbles the moves because they are trying to go fast, that's not fun to watch. It happened several times in that comp.

There was already enough time pressure on the athletes with the 4+ rule. it seems a shame to make the clock even more important.

Some have argued that the new rule prevents boring moments where athletes take too long on the problems. Surely it's up to the route setters to control this. The odd occasion where someone finds an ingenious rest can be quite entertaining. I'd rather see people slowly battling up a problem than being forced to drop off.

There was one occasion in this comp where someone managed to scrape up to the top just before the clock ran out. This was a little bit exciting and the commentator tried to use it as justification for the merit of the 4min rule. I wasn't convinced, and I'm clearly not the only one.

--

I've always thought the 4+ rule was a great format. It's a rule that seems to have evolved to accommodate the spirit of bouldering, and to celebrate the one-last-go mentality that all climbers can relate to. I think this is also immediately understandable to non climbers. By contrast, imposing the 4min cut off seems very conformist, as though it's some sort of effort to make bouldering fit in with other sports. It's no wonder there is widespread outcry against this step. You don't make something better by taking away something that makes it special.

+1 - What he said

[Moo]

yeeeup

[bigironhorse]

  well put

[abarro81]

+1

[fried]

Can I jump on this bandwagon and say 'well put'?

[andymarshll]

Me too, all the moments I remember from past years competitions have been 4+ moments, Rustams last ditch attempt at that ridiculous triple clutch dyno at last years CWIf, Rei Sugimoto at Grindelwald in 2014, Melissa Le Neve every competition ever. The crowd goes wild every time, the stakes are so much higher, now we get so much looking at the clock and walking off with 20 seconds left.

[sxrxg]

If they are really worried about timings for TV could it not be a 4min to pull on + 1min to finish the problem (or fall off) format. That way there is still the maximum allotted time for scheduling purposes and it would stop people potentially pulling on and resting off the ground (which could get boring) whilst still allowing for the last ditch effort pulling on just before the 4 minutes that has lead to some of the most intense and interesting action over the last few years?

[Duma]

What Robin (and everyone else) said.

[SA Chris]

Agree totally.

I think if you put it to a vote on the IFSC Facebook page or something you would find almost no-one in favour of it.

It was an experiment, it's not working, drop it?

[ghisino]

If they are really worried about timings for TV could it not be a 4min to pull on + 1min to finish the problem (or fall off) format.

+1

[Fiend]

Graeme: The recent Chinese one with a second Shauna crush. Pretty sure you were there?? Didn't you think it was great overall? Or the problems weren't as entertaining as before?

Yes I was there. Can you go through each problem and justify why you say it was a disaster? And specifically say why the 4/4+ rule is at fault rather than anything else?

Sure. Let me look at the problems I said were a disaster....














If you were referring to me talking about spoilt attempts on some problems (in the context of the rest of the climber's effort on the problem being good, other climbers' efforts on the problems being good, and the overall praise for the competition that I started with which I think is pretty important and stuff like the side-by-side climbing and more knowedgeable commentary is getting universally acclaimed), then IIRC there was a time-out or two or at least a rushed attempt on M1, rushed attempts on W2, and rushed attempts on M3. There may be more. Justification for saying these spoilt attempts: Because it did. It spoilt my viewing of it. Maybe it spoilt the climbers' experience too, I seem to recall some frustrated looks.

For any further justification refer to R-man.

[dave]

Imagine how shit snooker would be if you had to plan and execute every shot and the balls come to rest inside a time limit for every shot.

[BID]

I feel as though the defenses for the 4 minute only are all devils advocate defenses. r-man did a good job of explaining his reasons against it, but fundamentally I feel like it's just worse.

Graeme, are you playing devils advocate here or do you think 4 minute is better?

[teapot]

Just saw my first ever qualification (with Japanese commentary). Didn't realise the order is dependent on the placings from the last round. Shauna flashed all 5 problems and Janja and Michaela (👍) flashed 4 and 2 goes on other. Leah 11th, which is impressive especially as she was pretty a late starter (in the comp)

Seeing how much those outside the top 20 struggle with the problems was eye opening! Definitely recommend a quick watch. Normally I only see the semis and finals and you can easily lose perspective on how hard the problems.

I reckon Shauna will win this year, as she has more experience than Janja. Last round Janja burned loads more energy in the semis than Shauna. Shauna seems to know when to hold back and cut her losses on a problem. That's takes experience and confidence. Bet Janja tops more problems overall though this season.

[jwi]

Disappointing showing by the japanese team, only 8 men through to the semis.