[Oldmanmatt]

I find this definition of "rammed" mildly amusing...
I lived in the Ardeche for 10 years from the mid '90s. The number of crags in close proximity and staggering number of routes, just in that one zone of France; was as War and Peace is to Anstey's postage stamp.
And yet it was rammed at weekends if there was as much as a hint of fair weather. Literally thousands of climbers, despite being a good hour and a half from the nearest big city.
We have nothing like the participation in this country, we also seem to be the only nation that has any coherent idea idea of "Ethics" (or is it obsession?)


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[abarro81]

Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.

[shark]

Ben Moon's conclusion on more people at the crags: "its outweighed by the positives"

[dave]

Ben Moon's conclusion on more people at the crags: "its outweighed by the positives"

Climbing clobber manufacturer in pro-participation shocker.

[shark]

 

[T_B]

Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.

So we've got all these amazing facilities that the previous generation didn't have, but they're too busy for you to do structured training (violin not small enough in this emoji).

I suppose you could ask Jerry to subsidise your training by limiting the number of customers to the Foundry? Maybe invest in a few more Autobelays? Sure, the wall would make a loss, but it would help you get up 9a+? 

I admire your idealism!

[gme]

Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.

So we've got all these amazing facilities that the previous generation didn't have, but they're too busy for you to do structured training (violin not small enough in this emoji).

I suppose you could ask Jerry to subsidise your training by limiting the number of customers to the Foundry? Maybe invest in a few more Autobelays? Sure, the wall would make a loss, but it would help you get up 9a+? 

I admire your idealism!

I too nearly choked on my coffee when i read that. The facilities these days are out of this world but have to be for everyone. If you not happy with them build your own.

No facility is going to be ideal for one person, the closest you will get, unless you build your own, is the likes of the school and still many people moan about that. Too quite, doesnt have the fingerboard i normally use, campus board is not the same angle as X, weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.

Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.

[Teaboy]

Most sport crags are busier than they've ever been (and I'm including the fabled Malham Catwalk in the 90's in that comparison). Trad crags not so much, probably, but also there are legendary trad routes that all trad climbers want to do at hundreds of crags in the UK but the routes sport climbers *really* want to do in the UK are confined to about 7 crags.

[Oldmanmatt]

^^ this.

I agree Anstey's is quite busy on sunny weekends. But I walk the dog there most weeks, two or three times. There's rarely a soul to be seen, wet or dry, summer or winter. At most a small group or just a pair. I climb on the moors, during the week. Alone. Yesterday I went to Bonehill for the first time in a while. It was sunny and cold. I was the only person there when I arrived at 9:30. When I left at 11:30 the only other humans were an elderly couple who parked up and went hiking.
I went over to Hay tor. The busiest place on Dartmoor by a hefty margin. Quite a few dog walkers, but not a single climber. I walked back to Hound tor and ate lunch in the sun. Nobody.
Three of the biggest honey spots on the moor, I was the only climber. Even in warm sunny summer days, in school holidays, I've not found Bonehill crowded.
Most school holidays, you'll find me with my kids clipping bolts at Portland. In the last five years, only once have I been within talking distance of another group of climbers! That includes a few Saturdays.
Now, I haven't been to the Peak in donkey's, but last time I was at Stanage I had to wait for three other pairs to get my buddy on his first ascent of Right Unconquerable...

Edit:
Teaboy got in first, I was thinking of GME's post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[andy_e]

A lot of anecdotal "the crags are/aren't getting busier" evidence. Can anyone do any SCIENCE please?

[Paul B]

Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.

You're being highly selective here; how's Bowden fairing these days? Do you think people give it the respect it requires after rain? Do you ever see new starters not properly cleaning their shoes?

weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.

You're referencing the school bench here; it's plywood with matting carpet attached and zero padding. This isn't good for lifting weights on (I don't have any back fat to compensate); it has injury written all over it. It's a fair criticism (as was lack of fingerboard and sufficient warmups) and to suggest otherwise undercuts your argument. Perhaps (likely) these suggestions weren't made in the best way but that's a seperate point.

With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class. Suggesting you just go another time is about as strong as your Moors arguement for when the sport climbing gets busy (i.e. it ignores all other factors). This shows the realities of commercial walls, the profit is not in the people with the stopwatch (and they're entirely right to aim at what the majority of their customer base wants). In the future, like I've said elsewhere, this will change.

[gme]

Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.

You're being highly selective here; how's Bowden fairing these days? Do you think people give it the respect it requires after rain? Do you ever see new starters not properly cleaning their shoes?

No i am not. Bowden is never busy either compared to years ago. I am not saying that the rock hasnt been damaged but that has happened over years and is as much to do with repeated attempts at the same handful of problems as the points you raised. I go there at least 1-2 times a month and there is never more than a few other parties on the crag. On top of that if there are groups of 4+ people there they tend to be from outside the NE and up for a few days. The number of people out who live in the NE is minimal despite there now being 7-8 busy climbing walls compared to the 1 or 2 we had years ago.

weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.

You're referencing the school bench here; it's plywood with matting carpet attached and zero padding. This isn't good for lifting weights on (I don't have any back fat to compensate); it has injury written all over it. It's a fair criticism (as was lack of fingerboard and sufficient warmups) and to suggest otherwise undercuts your argument. Perhaps (likely) these suggestions weren't made in the best way but that's a seperate point.

Exactly as i said, your moaning about minor things. I have no issue with the bench, it could be better yes but how many other walls have a full set of weights etc to use, the fingerboard is fine but not the one you want and i have no issue with warming up there and your a much better climber than me. And no mention of all the positives, what about all the good stuff. I even know that people have left because its to fucking quiet.
Without wanting to sound like a moany old cunt People do not know how lucky they are these days. I wish we had had the facilities you have now 20 years ago even with the crowds.

With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class. Suggesting you just go another time is about as strong as your Moors arguement for when the sport climbing gets busy (i.e. it ignores all other factors). This shows the realities of commercial walls, the profit is not in the people with the stopwatch (and they're entirely right to aim at what the majority of their customer base wants). In the future, like I've said elsewhere, this will change.

I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.

[dave]

The minor annoyances of the school are, for me, mainly only annoying because they would be easy/quick/cheap fixes. You know when something is 95% amazing and that last 5% is an easy fix but doesn't happen? Icing on the cake, but who doesn't like icing on a cake?

The weight bench we're talking a metre offcut of foam, bit of suitable fabric (salvage both from a trashed bouldering mat?) and staple it underneath the ply, 15 mins, job done. Fingerboard; there's an empty steel frame crying out for one of the beastmakers that've been offered. Sheet of ply, few screws/bolts, easy fix.

A pullup bar away from the wall for levers etc is a tougher ask. As for warmups, this ain't Birchens but warming up is fine.

[WillRobertson]

I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.

This. The only way walls will start getting most of their business from people training is if more people want to train, thus making it harder for structured training?

Unless there's some sort of one-in one-out entry system that limits the amount of people to the amount of fingerboards, or campus boards, or circuits boards they have. How is this sustainable?

The fact is if people want to train at public facilities then they have to accept that other members of the public may also want to train/use the equipment and thus be more flexible as a result.

[Paul B]

No i am not. Bowden is never busy either compared to years ago. I am not saying that the rock hasnt been damaged but that has happened over years and is as much to do with repeated attempts at the same handful of problems as the points you raised. I go there at least 1-2 times a month and there is never more than a few other parties on the crag. On top of that if there are groups of 4+ people there they tend to be from outside the NE and up for a few days. The number of people out who live in the NE is minimal despite there now being 7-8 busy climbing walls compared to the 1 or 2 we had years ago.

Fair enough, it's been some time since I went up there 'regularly' so I'll defer to you on this one. I'm not convinced that wear to the rock (specifically behaviours) elsewhere isn't down to more than this (i.e. cumulative wear).

Exactly as i said, your moaning about minor things. I have no issue with the bench, it could be better yes but how many other walls have a full set of weights etc to use, the fingerboard is fine but not the one you want and i have no issue with warming up there and your a much better climber than me. And no mention of all the positives, what about all the good stuff. I even know that people have left because its to fucking quiet.
Without wanting to sound like a moany old cunt People do not know how lucky they are these days. I wish we had had the facilities you have now 20 years ago even with the crowds.

There's a difference between moaning (something I'm aware I'm good at) and constructive criticism (something I'm less good at). There were a significant portion of members on the initial opening who had the same constructive criticism. That doesn't mean they "don't know they're born" etc. neither does it mean they don't/didn't appreciate the rest of a given facility (I thought it was great, with the potential of being nigh on perfect). It's far too easy to go character assassination with this and just presume the person doing the moaning/suggesting is a whiny little idiot but look at the requests, do they really seem so unreasonable in hindsight (and basically 'what Dave said')?

Also, without such criticism or commentary things don't change. The best walls I've visited are the ones keen to engage their members.

I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.

As the number of people climbing exists, and the general standard progresses I still think that training facilities at walls will gain more focus and for me I think that'll be enough. I also think you're wrong regarding £££. Climbers seem increasingly happy to pay (for training etc.). If a higher % of people are looking to train, walls will offer a higher % of training facilities. The top 1% of which I'm certainly not claiming to be anywhere near will always struggle as commercial venues will never cater for their needs.

[Muenchener]

With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class.

I managed to chase away a group who were doing pilates type stuff underneath the beastmaker at a wall  on a Sunday afternoon by means of approaching with an air of determination and a 20kg plate hanging from my waist, having previously deliberately switched on my "I am a climber, this is a climbing wall. I am doing something more relevant to climbing than you are. So fuck off and do your pilates somewhere else" mindset.

I am normally mild mannered, self effacing and nice to people, but sometimes it pays to be aware when you have more business being there than somebody else does.

[Paul B]

In this instance they have every right to be there given it was an organised class (and likely worth more than my desire to hang from a BM). I may not have understood this in my days of pestering Graeme et al. but I do now 

I just wonder if GME feels that raising "your additional FBs are good but having them out of use during peak times due to yoga isn't great" is a fair point to raise or should I hang off the toilet door frame instead (you did this back in the day, right?) whilst simultaneously washing my mouth out with soap?

[gme]

There's a difference between moaning (something I'm aware I'm good at) and constructive criticism (something I'm less good at). There were a significant portion of members on the initial opening who had the same constructive criticism. That doesn't mean they "don't know they're born" etc. neither does it mean they don't/didn't appreciate the rest of a given facility (I thought it was great, with the potential of being nigh on perfect). It's far too easy to go character assassination with this and just presume the person doing the moaning/suggesting is a whiny little idiot but look at the requests, do they really seem so unreasonable in hindsight (and basically 'what Dave said')?

Also, without such criticism or commentary things don't change. The best walls I've visited are the ones keen to engage their members.

Its gone completely off subject now but i was only using the school, as its somewhere i am aware of the problem, to show that it is nigh on impossible to have a venue that can cater for everyone's needs. Alex would like a huge circuit board that he can do his round and round things on uninterpreted with specific circuits for him built with perfect sized comfortable holds which is possible but then he wants everyone to leave so he can use it as he wants to the sound of a ticking metronome. Others want a motherboard type thing with poor feet etc etc. Pretty much impossible to do on a commercial level unless you get 50 ish members and all pay 1000+ a year and therefore why i think it will never happen.

[Paul B]

The top 1% of which I'm certainly not claiming to be anywhere near will always struggle as commercial venues will never cater for their needs.

So I think we're agreed on this at least. You're making me work hard with the quote marks!

[jwi]

Modern bouldering gyms are the reason people are so extraordinarily strong yet so shockingly bad at sport climbing these days. Twenty years ago, if you could do 7b in Fontainebleau you could do almost any 8a route you tried, now someone who does 7b in Font often cannot do 6c routes.

I once visited the climbing wall of a climbing club in a small city with many strong competition climbers. Their local club had a small wall for training endurance with a strictly enforced time-reservation system, not more than 4 people were allowed to use the wall at the same time. They won all the comps.

[T_B]

When the Cockermouth climbing wall opened in 1991, it was hailed as the ultimate wall for training endurance (by local climbers), as one side of the room was a 30 metre natural stone wall. So, basically what people did was do a circuit of the room x 10 times of an evening and that meant you might be fit enough to lead Lakes E3. You'd have 20 - 30 climbers all in a row traversing along in a clockwise direction getting reet fit.

Sounds like there's a need for a modern equivalent. Maybe a huge sphere that slowly spins on a diagonal axis? Does it exist I wonder?

Fingerboards are easy. Just have loads of them on all four sides of a freestanding F/board 'island'.

Modern climbing centres will eventually accommodate the demand for training, as well as the demand for 'easy' bouldering.

[Oldmanmatt]

We're not rammed. Plenty of room here. Dip bars, muscle up bar, pull up bar, three finger boards (2 BM 2000's), three boards (variable, 30*, 45*), weights, campus board, Aerial ladder, ninja circuit, bike, X-trainer, rowing machine, traversing wall, couple hundred M^2 bouldering from 5-7B+ and all just a short commute from downtown Shef (6, 7 hours tops)...

Please note a degree of sarcasm in the above. Training is still a very tough sell here.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[tomtom]

Isn't everything at a climbing wall just training?

[gme]

Sorry Paul. After using this forum for god knows how many years I still have no f**king idea how to use the quote thingy.

[Muenchener]

Isn't everything at a climbing wall just training?

Get with it gramps. Dynoing sideways from one beachball to another is an end in itself.