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U-S-A! The American Politics Thread. (Read 499805 times)

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#1600 Re: Trump
July 26, 2020, 07:58:37 am
The Guardian is a US paper as well. It has a full staff over there and a full US edition. It's saying no more than other leading  US media. NRA has run out of money and desperately needs some rich doners.

On abortion there is the small matter for a democracy that a large majority want to keep Roe vs Wade (albeit with conditions).  It's highly complex but does illustrate perfectly the split between the educated liberal and religious conservative viewpoints.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730183531/poll-majority-want-to-keep-abortion-legal-but-they-also-want-restrictions

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#1601 Re: Trump
July 26, 2020, 11:29:13 pm
The Guardian is a US paper as well. It has a full staff over there and a full US edition.

I knew that. Is it actually a print edition, and I wonder how many American people see it as a 'US paper as well'?

The NRA might be short of a few bob, but if you're arguing that the pro gun lobby is on the wane, I think you might be onto a loser.

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#1602 Re: Trump
July 27, 2020, 01:27:00 pm
A look at problems in the border force agents being used in US cities and a new campaign highlighting the climate risks if Trump is re-elected.

 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/27/trump-border-patrol-troops-portland-bortac

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/27/global-climate-fight-could-be-lost-trump-re-elected

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#1603 Re: Trump
July 29, 2020, 09:32:19 am
Another curtailed news conference after trying to promote a conspiracy theory quack...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/28/trump-covid-19-briefing-hydroxychloroquine-video

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#1604 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 09:43:23 am
Another curtailed news conference after trying to promote a conspiracy theory quack...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/28/trump-covid-19-briefing-hydroxychloroquine-video

Despite how frothy the Guardian get at any opportunity to have a supercilious giggle at Trump, he's just not the idiot that they'd like to think he is.
A profoundly unpleasant person, in every way possible, certainly if his media profile is any guide. But a certain body of opinion holds that the rambling simpleton is all a persona and a sound electoral tactic. It works for Boris, after all.
Offwidth, there's really little need to post Guardian links, I suspect at least 90% of ukb read it anyway. I'm not denying it can publish a lot of quality journalism and is in many ways a great newspaper, but I had a read through the Fox news report of that conference which actually represents what many Americans will think, it actually wasn't quite as different as I thought it might be, though.

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#1605 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 03:46:02 pm
I think Offwidth's account may have been taken over by a bot that posts links to the Guardian but which never generate any meaningful discussion.

As Toby says, we can all pick up on embarrassing news conferences in the press or other social media. If there's no discussion to be had about them then what's the point in posting? Is this thread just meant as a catalogue of Trump's shitness? I can get that much more comprehensively elsewhere.

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#1606 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 07:20:38 pm
I think Offwidth's account may have been taken over by a bot that posts links to the Guardian but which never generate any meaningful discussion.

As Toby says, we can all pick up on embarrassing news conferences in the press or other social media. If there's no discussion to be had about them then what's the point in posting? Is this thread just meant as a catalogue of Trump's shitness? I can get that much more comprehensively elsewhere.

Are you downgrading posts as well now? :D

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#1607 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 10:25:05 pm

As Toby says, we can all pick up on embarrassing news conferences in the press or other social media. If there's no discussion to be had about them then what's the point in posting? Is this thread just meant as a catalogue of Trump's shitness? I can get that much more comprehensively elsewhere.

Indeed, although I wasn't trying to get at Offwidth at all, I enjoy anyone's comments if it doesn't consist of just a link. I'm sure I've done it in the past, but it's not terribly condusive to a conversation or debate. Fun though laughing at Trump is, I suspect that's part of his game plan and there is every chance he'll find a way to remain in power.

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#1608 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 10:31:47 pm
Problem is (for a thread) that he’s such a fucking car crash that there’s no counter argument... it’s hard to be surprised at anything he does now (today is a case I. Point).

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#1609 Re: Trump
July 30, 2020, 11:25:40 pm
Problem is (for a thread) that he’s such a fucking car crash that there’s no counter argument... it’s hard to be surprised at anything he does now (today is a case I. Point).

However, it's remarkable how far being like he is has got him. He is / was a mediocre businessman at best, but from this background fronted a ludicrously popular reality TV show and pretended he'd written the art of the deal, both of which gained him popularity, exposure and notorioty.

He's a joke of a politician, but the fact remains that he is president. He clearly has a sense of what appeals to people and can make it work. The idiotic behaviour may well be what appeals to people. Will it appeal to enough people to keep him in office? I think, perhaps.

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#1610 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 08:50:55 am
Problem is (for a thread) that he’s such a fucking car crash that there’s no counter argument... it’s hard to be surprised at anything he does now (today is a case I. Point).

However, it's remarkable how far being like he is has got him. He is / was a mediocre businessman at best, but from this background fronted a ludicrously popular reality TV show and pretended he'd written the art of the deal, both of which gained him popularity, exposure and notorioty.

He's a joke of a politician, but the fact remains that he is president. He clearly has a sense of what appeals to people and can make it work. The idiotic behaviour may well be what appeals to people. Will it appeal to enough people to keep him in office? I think, perhaps.

The truth probably lays somewhere between the two extremes.

There are several inside accounts of his dejection and expectation of failure on election night, for instance.

The voting patterns back in 2016, really point to the Dems losing the election, rather than the GOP winning (if that makes sense) as it were. Clinton was not a good candidate, or at least, too unpopular amongst her own party and swing voters.
Hard to tell exactly how much influence that had, but I think we’ll find out in November.
Ultimately, for me, I think the turnout for his Tulsa rally and the recent sequela for his most prominent African American supporter, is going to be indicative of his future.

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#1611 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 10:40:16 am

However, it's remarkable how far being like he is has got him. He is / was a mediocre businessman at best, but from this background fronted a ludicrously popular reality TV show and pretended he'd written the art of the deal, both of which gained him popularity, exposure and notorioty.

He's a joke of a politician, but the fact remains that he is president. He clearly has a sense of what appeals to people and can make it work. The idiotic behaviour may well be what appeals to people. Will it appeal to enough people to keep him in office? I think, perhaps.

Perhaps? Anyone sensible says that. You said he would most likely win. My resulting debate on the subject highlights the greater problems he faces this time.

As for the rest, he is the front man for GOP. He follows in their grand recent line of dumb leaders. Without GOP he is nowhere and he must be getting close to to the point when distancing moves to something bigger. Trying to distract from my debate and the links evidencing with that cheap Guardian line is below you.

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#1612 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 11:18:58 am

As for the rest, he is the front man for GOP. He follows in their grand recent line of dumb leaders. Without GOP he is nowhere and he must be getting close to to the point when distancing moves to something bigger.

What strategy do the GOP have besides supporting the incumbent president?

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#1613 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 11:22:39 am

As for the rest, he is the front man for GOP. He follows in their grand recent line of dumb leaders. Without GOP he is nowhere and he must be getting close to to the point when distancing moves to something bigger.

What strategy do the GOP have besides supporting the incumbent president?

Yeah - I don't see this. I suspect the GOP went for Trump so they could get in power - now they have a dictator wannabe who whilst may be dumb and malleable - is also highly erratic and hard to predict. I suspect they'd much rather have someone else in charge.

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#1614 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 11:28:55 am
There is the nub. If the numbers for all the other GOP elections start to look too bad the question becomes is Plan B to take the hit and rebuild, or jump the gun, get rid of the orange one and look at damage limitation with Pence, another potential dumb leader.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mike-pence-coronavirus-fake-video-doctors-donald-trump-twitter-deleted-a9646071.html

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#1615 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 11:33:39 am
There is the nub. If the numbers for all the other GOP elections start to look too bad the question becomes is Plan B to take the hit and rebuild, or jump the gun, get rid of the orange one and look at damage limitation with Pence,

What mechanism do you envisage for this though, siding with Dems to try and trigger 25th Amendment? It seems vanishingly unlikely that they will do anything besides rally behind Trump.

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#1616 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 11:40:40 am
There is the nub. If the numbers for all the other GOP elections start to look too bad the question becomes is Plan B to take the hit and rebuild, or jump the gun, get rid of the orange one and look at damage limitation with Pence,

What mechanism do you envisage for this though, siding with Dems to try and trigger 25th Amendment? It seems vanishingly unlikely that they will do anything besides rally behind Trump.

It's remarkable how inventive political parties can become when the leader is a genuine liability. Trump didn't risk GOP senate elections last time. There is a logical line of terrible polls for many GOP candidates and his escaping with his legacy relatively intact (obviously from a GOP perspective), the inevitable mountains of dirt, threats to block him if elected and probably a few other methods.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 11:48:22 am by Offwidth »

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#1617 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 05:49:48 pm
I think Offwidth's account may have been taken over by a bot that posts links to the Guardian but which never generate any meaningful discussion.

As Toby says, we can all pick up on embarrassing news conferences in the press or other social media. If there's no discussion to be had about them then what's the point in posting? Is this thread just meant as a catalogue of Trump's shitness? I can get that much more comprehensively elsewhere.

I've counted to 10 now. One of the great things about UKB is our profiles have a list of our posts. It doesn't take long to go back through mine to see I'm hardly guilty of constant 'link bombing' with no obvious context or of failing to debate. On one occasion I was guilty of that, Pete and others rightly called me out and I apologised and explained what I meant  (it was one of those life overtaking thinking incidents people get when stressed). Other posters have pointed out that other site users don't get the negative scrutiny I do for. You do seem to have an issue with me that looks unhealthy.

As a point of irony I find the repository aspect of UKB and site structure incredibly useful; for everyone's links not just mine. Finding old news articles and Twitter spats and even scientific papers (as I have left Uni and lost access to academic search facility ) can be a real pain but I can find everything I was interested in posted here, if I need it again for something else.

Anyhow another opinion where the author thinks Trump is losing his past success on his 'common touch' in the response to Portland.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/31/trump-portland-antifa-voters-miscalculated
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 06:19:28 pm by Offwidth »

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#1618 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 07:11:32 pm
I think Offwidth's account may have been taken over by a bot that posts links to the Guardian but which never generate any meaningful discussion.

As Toby says, we can all pick up on embarrassing news conferences in the press or other social media. If there's no discussion to be had about them then what's the point in posting? Is this thread just meant as a catalogue of Trump's shitness? I can get that much more comprehensively elsewhere.

I've counted to 10 now. One of the great things about UKB is our profiles have a list of our posts. It doesn't take long to go back through mine to see I'm hardly guilty of constant 'link bombing' with no obvious context or of failing to debate. On one occasion I was guilty of that, Pete and others rightly called me out and I apologised and explained what I meant  (it was one of those life overtaking thinking incidents people get when stressed). Other posters have pointed out that other site users don't get the negative scrutiny I do for. You do seem to have an issue with me that looks unhealthy.

As a point of irony I find the repository aspect of UKB and site structure incredibly useful; for everyone's links not just mine. Finding old news articles and Twitter spats and even scientific papers (as I have left Uni and lost access to academic search facility ) can be a real pain but I can find everything I was interested in posted here, if I need it again for something else.

Anyhow another opinion where the author thinks Trump is losing his past success on his 'common touch' in the response to Portland.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/31/trump-portland-antifa-voters-miscalculated

I was reading an article on the beach earlier, over a cup of tea...

Which is to say, I can’t find the link again now and don’t have time at this second to look harder.

It was about the “Free Sheriffs” (or similar) movement and how they believe the Sheriff is the ultimate authority and arbiter of the Constitution. It’s surprisingly widespread.
To be clear, it’s an organisation of duly elected Sheriffs and they are actively opposing things like Lockdowns and mask orders, on the basis of some underlying unconstitutionality of a Governor’s executive order (also quite a lot of 2nd amendment related issues, like background checks etc).
Since they are incredibly pro-Trump and despite some pretty extreme reactionary activities, these guys are generally not facing recall in their jurisdictions, it seems likely that Trumps support might be much greater at grassroots level than polling or the media coverage suggests.

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#1619 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 07:34:59 pm
Again, we will see. This is not the same as last time: Trump only just beat Clinton and she was getting pretty bad press and
made stupid errors and got ill; his actions hadn't contributed to 100,000 unneccesary extra excess deaths, a crashed economy and millions out of work as a result. Attacking respected military leaders, many of his ex cabinet and advisors and even Fox News with GOP possibly heading to a lost senate. The demographic has shifted to Democrats benefit. Social media will be better policed.

https://bookies.com/news/senate-races-odds-tracker

Yes he could still win but it doesn't look most likely right now.

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#1620 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 07:37:41 pm
I read the article. I'm not saying there isn't strong grassroots support, but the Constitutionalist Sheriffs movement is not evidence of it. They generally represent scattered small pockets, mostly in the South West and West, places that already had pronounced anti governments traditions. They're elected at the county level, which are small administrative units. Pennsylvania (to which I always recur, I realise) is a big place; nonetheless it's worth bearing in mind that it has 67 counties, most of them small or empty or both.

TL:DR - you can be a Sheriff in the US and represent almost no-one, especially in Montana.

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#1621 Re: Trump
July 31, 2020, 10:23:32 pm

However, it's remarkable how far being like he is has got him. He is / was a mediocre businessman at best, but from this background fronted a ludicrously popular reality TV show and pretended he'd written the art of the deal, both of which gained him popularity, exposure and notorioty.

He's a joke of a politician, but the fact remains that he is president. He clearly has a sense of what appeals to people and can make it work. The idiotic behaviour may well be what appeals to people. Will it appeal to enough people to keep him in office? I think, perhaps.

Perhaps? Anyone sensible says that. You said he would most likely win. My resulting debate on the subject highlights the greater problems he faces this time.

As for the rest, he is the front man for GOP. He follows in their grand recent line of dumb leaders. Without GOP he is nowhere and he must be getting close to to the point when distancing moves to something bigger. Trying to distract from my debate and the links evidencing with that cheap Guardian line is below you.

I'm not sure if guardian comment columns constitute evidence.

When I said perhaps it was intended to suggest that I thought this was likely. There no doubt that presidency has not gone well for Trump. There are a thousand reasons why he shouldn't be reelected, but I'd still maintain he could win with a combination of dirty tricks, voter apathy about Biden and a genuinely trump supporting minority.

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#1622 Re: Trump
August 01, 2020, 12:33:53 am
Post all the Guardian links you like (please don't...  ;)) Trump will still be president in 2021.


A bit of a change in a week. I feel a bit sad pointing this out as I think you are right about the US liberal elite underestimating his reach and the possible dirty tricks route.

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#1623 Re: Trump
August 01, 2020, 09:33:20 am
Post all the Guardian links you like (please don't...  ;)) Trump will still be president in 2021.


A bit of a change in a week. I feel a bit sad pointing this out as I think you are right about the US liberal elite underestimating his reach and the possible dirty tricks route.

My comments are only light hearted guesswork,  informed by a reasonably wide breadth of media consumption including US media, the BBC and British papers.
Don't get me wrong I also want nothing better than Biden / Rice (??) handing him a total humiliation, and him then being bankrupted by numerous legal costs arising from all the people who want to take him to court.  But unfortunately hes still a strong media performer and compelling, even if you hate him.

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#1624 Re: Trump
August 02, 2020, 09:14:25 am
Jon Naughton with a whiff of optimism from the grilling of tech titans by the democrats on the Congress anti-trust committee (and the depressing obsessions of the Republicans).

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/commentisfree/2020/aug/02/at-last-the-tech-titans-nerd-immunity-shows-signs-of-fading

 

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