[Oldmanmatt]

Andy, Just heard some audio from the greenville rally, feeling the dread for US (and us when johnson gets in) 

You mean the rally that had “20,000 in the crowd” according to Trump’s campaign manager, but was held in an arena with a max capacity of 8000?

[al]

Not sure about that matt, it's the rally where the crowd chants "send her back"

[andy popp]

Andy, Just heard some audio from the greenville rally, feeling the dread for US (and us when johnson gets in) 

Thanks Al. Yes, its both sickening and frightening.

[Oldmanmatt]

Not sure about that matt, it's the rally where the crowd chants "send her back"

Yes. Same rally.
Beyond parody now.

https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-brad-parscale-north-carolina-rally-attendance-crowd-size-9010496

[UnkArl]

Minges Colosseum 

[Oldmanmatt]

Minges Colosseum 

I guess he figured he could really grab them there...

[andy popp]

Not sure about that matt, it's the rally where the crowd chants "send her back"

Yes. Same rally.
Beyond parody now.

https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-brad-parscale-north-carolina-rally-attendance-crowd-size-9010496

From farce to fascism.

[andy popp]

Trump has blood on his hands, again. There is a direct line to be drawn between his racist rhetoric and incitements to violence and the white supremacist terrorism of Pittsburgh (11 dead), Poway (1), Gilroy (3), Charlottesville (1), and El Paso (20) (and others, including Dayton, in all probability).

[JamieG]

You're absolutely right Andy. This is white nationalist terrorism being perpetuated from the very top. Unfortunately I don't think Trump and Republicans care. They lack even a shred of empathy.

Looking for the positives, the queues of locals at the blood donation centres was heartening. At least a lot of ordinary people do care about their communities.

[Oldmanmatt]

According to the Texas Lieutenant Governor, it’s because kids don’t pray in school anymore.
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.
.
.
.
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What the absolute fuck is wrong with these twats.

[andy popp]

Unfortunately I don't think Trump and Republicans care. They lack even a shred of empathy.

The country - and the GOP in particular - face a moral crisis and a moral choice; whether to continue supporting or to repudiate an undisguised racist who foments violence. Unfortunately, I think you're right. Just about every American FB friend I know has at least one Trump supporting FB friend, often a family member. I have not seen one saying "enough, this has to stop." Indeed I have see many already today deflecting and distracting, vehemently arguing that none of this is to do with Trump, even that it is anything to with guns.

This column by arch-conservative Jennifer Rubin makes the case against Trump very well: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/04/there-is-no-excuse-supporting-this-president/?utm_term=.e009cd46537e

[JamieG]

Thats a good article. The rise in hate crimes is really worrying. But the same thing has happened here I believe.

[tomtom]

Thats a good article. The rise in hate crimes is really worrying. But the same thing has happened here I believe.

But thankfully hate crimes here are not expressed via mass shootings. The US has had 200+ More mass shootings than the UK in 2019*

*UK is zero. Mass shootings definition varies but it seems to generally be 4+ people being shot (wounded or killed) in once incident.

I spent half an hour or so looking at global distributions/rates of mass shootings - and it is truly shocking how many there are in the US.

[mrjonathanr]

Would they correlate with the distribution of guns in private citizens' ownership by any chance?

[tomtom]

Would they correlate with the distribution of guns in private citizens' ownership by any chance?

Not linearly....

USA - 112.6 guns per 100 residents
Serbia - 75.6
Yemen - 54.8
Switzerland - 45.7
Cyprus - 36.4
Saudi Arabia - 35
Iraq - 34.2
Uruguay - 31.8
Sweden - 31.6
Norway - 31.3

Iirc if you don’t include countries in/recently at war (eg Iraq and yemen) Canada was next on the mass shootings list with 4.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks tt. If I understood correctly that means the US is a real aberration then, no other peacetime country comes close to the incidence of mass shootings, relative or otherwise.

[andy popp]

This article (Nov 2017) is excellent on this topic. To summarize the argument, and paraphrase Bill Clinton, its the guns, stupid (definitely not directed at anyone here):

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?fbclid=IwAR38c4p67Py4Q36NcSYCPWPKm8J5Vsir2CQzmPgUOPIv4pdnp4qILD2IAjU

[tomtom]

This article (Nov 2017) is excellent on this topic. To summarize the argument, and paraphrase Bill Clinton, its the guns, stupid (definitely not directed at anyone here):

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?fbclid=IwAR38c4p67Py4Q36NcSYCPWPKm8J5Vsir2CQzmPgUOPIv4pdnp4qILD2IAjU

Skip to the second graph in the above article where gun ownership and mass shootings are normalised by population.

Interestingly, the article doesn’t explicitly cover hate crimes of whether those mass shootings are linked to racial/religious/homophobic motivations - which is a narrative that is starting to be explored more.

Thanks Andy.

[mrjonathanr]

Some final sentence there.

[andy popp]

Interestingly, the article doesn’t explicitly cover hate crimes of whether those mass shootings are linked to racial/religious/homophobic motivations

Part of the problem is that how crimes are recorded (essentially how they are prosecuted) can be highly uneven and almost arbitrary - to the extent that its something of a surprise that the authorities have already said El Paso will likely be prosecuted as a hate crime. In other words the data isn't very reliable. Sometimes reliable information on motivation is missing. As far as I know investigators have been able to ascribe no motive at all to the vast mass killing in Las Vegas.

In the US there is a great reluctance to recognize white supremacist terrorism as such. Trump has already dismissed El Paso as due to mental illness.

[Falling Down]

Sounds like Pelosi is about to launch impeachment.  The whistleblower is going to testify this Friday.  McConnell has also just _maybe_ (unless he’s playing games) allowed the whilsteblowers report to be released to Congress.  This could be it.

[Oldmanmatt]

Aaaaaand......

She did it.

What a frickin day! Mop haired twunts both sides of the Atlantic facing consequences.

May right prevail.

[andy popp]

This does indeed appear to be it. Pelosi has been unwavering in her reluctance to contemplate impeachment, making a political calculation that it will a) fail and, having failed, b) strengthen Trump's persecution narrative, strengthening his base. Trump has been incriminating himself for days, almost goading the Democrats to act. Something has shifted. Does Pelosi know something we do not? That's what a lot of us are hoping right now. (Our House rep is a moderate in a swing seat but also came out in favor of impeachment today, no doubt after receiving a briefing). We will see what the transcript brings tomorrow and then testimony on Friday.

There are huge risks and uncertainties. Articles of impeachment will pass in the House but almost certainly fail in the Senate.  There are some vulnerable Republican Senators, like Susan Collins in Maine, but probably not enough - or not enough with enough backbone. The question then is the degree of fallout in next year's election. But its getting to the point where not acting also carries real risks. To not act will at some point attract accusations of weakness and cowardice from Republicans. And in the end, no matter if impeachment is doomed from the beginning, it must at some point become a moral imperative, to not impeach for tactical reasons is to become complicit at some point.

Who knows how the electorate will react. I asked a FB friend's raging Trumper relative if it would be a problem if the accusations were proven and he did say yes, it would. But I suspect he will always find a reason to excuse Trump, a way to wriggle out of admitting he supports a deeply corrupt and venal man.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well, it’s out.
I read it, it seems to be much more than just the call and that multiple individuals are involved in the complaint, that the complainant is very senior and that he/she has been “elected” to front a broader body.
Impressions only, of course.

The whole thing is in this article:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/whistleblower-complaint-trump-ukraine-call-declassified_us_5d8c2872e4b0ac3cdda2fa74

[andy popp]

I've only briefly scanned the complaint so far. I thought the "transcript" released yesterday was absolutely damning. I think all the focus should be on that. I fear the whistleblower complaint could be used to muddy the waters. What it does add is the cover up and involvement of others. Others have noted that they (the whistleblower) appear to be someone very senior.

In some ways, the whole thing is maddening - he's been in clear breach of the emoluments clause since the day he was inaugurated.