[slackline]

"Assuming he's successful, doesn't that constitute 'pathing it'?" - Paul B

Not really.  To be honest, I think he had to put a fair bit more time and effort into this than I'd expected.  I'd kinda expected him to struggle on some of the wierd laybacky type things - ie: pitches 10, 17 etc.  But the two crux pitches, I thought he would do much more easily than he did.   He did have hot weather all time he was there up till the third day of the push.  But from then on, including both days spent on the crux pitches it cooled down loads.  They are clearly properly hard.

You have incredibly high expectations!  Its not like Ondra onsights every 9a he tries (the vast majority of which are not slabby climbs rather steep and overhanging).

Surely the question of 'pathing it' is relative?

Caldwell has a wealth of experience doing big walls on El Cap, spent several years working out a line and then Jorgenson got involved (known for being a dab hand at granite bouldering so his skill set was honed too).  Together they worked the various pitches for a few more years, learning all the moves, dialling the pitches.  They tried freeing it in 2010 but Caldwell sustained a broken ankle and it wasn't until 2014 that Caldwell freed pitch 14 and they then went for a "final push" 2015/16 over a period of 19 days, swinging leads on the first 10 pitches and also on some of the top ones from what I can find in the reports.

Ondra readily confessed himself that the smooth granite walls were not his style (i.e. not steep overhanging crimps) and need to be climbed relatively slowly compared to his normal style.  Turns up and based on the Supertopo thread you quote has 23 days in the valley, of which 15 were on the wall, refining and adapting to the style of El Cap climbing whilst at the same time learning the route as he put fixed ropes up from the ground (can't find it now but I recall reading a quote by Jorgenson saying this was impressive as he and Caldwell had fixed ropes from the top for their work/push).  He then set off on the 14th November, climbing pitches 1-9 in six hours (pitches 1-10 took Caldwell and Jorgenson 3 days). Ondra did pitches 10-13 on Day 2 then rested deliberately for a day before trying 14 which took him two days in the end but then he did pitch 15 second go the same day (Ondra 1-15 total of 5-days; Caldwell and Jorgenson both got through pitch 14 by day 7).  No rest for Ondra and he climbed the loop pitch (16) and the next five pitches upto Wino tower (16-21 in a day total of 7 days; Caldwell reached Wino tower after 16-days whilst Jorgenson had been shut down by 15 he completed it that day).  A forced rest day due to rain and he then climbed the remaining pitches on the eighth day (Jorgenson took two days to catch Caldwell up on Wino Tower and they then topped out the next day, total of 19 days on the wall).

There is the added pressure of a first ascent and not knowing whether it was possible for Caldwell and Jorgenson, whilst Ondra knew it had been climbed and helpfully had key sequences shared with him by the first ascentionists.  That aside leading every single pitch in less than half the time it took Caldwell and Jorgenson and without the wealth of experience on the rock type was an absolutely phenomenal effort from Ondra.  And he appears to have done it all with a smile on his face as he just fucking loves climbing.

Other factors to consider are that Ondra has predominantly climbed sport and bouldered rather than trad/fixed gear, must have taken a big psychological step to go through that learning curve so quickly in such a tough playground.

There is still room for improvement, for example someone could rock up and go completely ground-up or even on-sight the whole thing(!!!) but I doubt there are going to be many suitors in the foreseeable future and it will be some time before anyone will come close to matching it.


Caldwell and Jorgenson timeline of final push

[IanP]

You have incredibly high expectations!  Its not like Ondra onsights every 9a he tries (the vast majority of which are not slabby climbs rather steep and overhanging).

Surely the question of 'pathing it' is relative?

Of course 'pathing it' is relative but I get the impression that Ondra had to dig pretty deep and found it harder than he expected.  This is not to take anything from his achievement just that the standards he sets are so ridiculously high.

Seems to me he's a once in a generation (or even once in many generations) climber who is best in the world at pretty much anything he turns his hand to and who seems to amaze other elite climbers just as much as he does armchair watchers.   

Caldwell kept it simple:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BNGQEh3j5GD/?taken-by=tommycaldwell

'tommycaldwell Speechless.'

   

[Wood FT]

good summary, stunning achievement and totally inspiring.

Through this push I've found myself commenting on his Instagram like a complete dork but fuck it I think he's a dork too and he probably reads his comments, and this too, go on Adam!

[slackline]

just that the standards he sets are so ridiculously high.

Ondra or nemo?

I've not read anywhere Ondra's expectations of how he would find the climb, let alone that he expected to 'path it'.  Rather that he was very excited to go and try it as he fucking loves climbing.

Its others, nemo perhaps included, expectations of his performance that seem to have been set ridiculously high.

[BID]

Seems to me he's a once in a generation (or even once in many generations) climber who is best in the world at pretty much anything he turns his hand to and who seems to amaze other elite climbers just as much as he does armchair watchers.   

[/quote]

Let's not be forgetting Megos and Nalle.

The reason Ondra is ludicrous and amazing in my mind is that he's such a mad nerd. I think a similar thing would have happened if Megos rocked up, he just isn't likely to because he want's to do what he's doing atm.

Don't get me wrong, Ondra is a wonderful bastard, I just dislike talk of once in a generation and greatest. Maybe his want for variety alongside being up there (understatement I realise) strength wise makes him once in a generation. Who knows.

For my part I think what Nalle did with Burden of Dreams is more impressive, less mad and cool and out there for him, but more impressive.

Might get a bit vilified for this :D

[Wood FT]

For my part I think what Nalle did with Burden of Dreams is more impressive, less mad and cool and out there for him, but more impressive.

Might get a bit vilified for this :D

[tomtom]

Glad those fruit are labelled there Guy. Had me confused for a second..

[SA Chris]

Good summary Slackers + 1 on all of it.

I think for the task he's taken on he has pathed it. The fact that he found it hard going, but still dug in and rose to the challenge shows once again what an utter beast he is.

[Wood FT]

Glad those fruit are labelled there Guy. Had me confused for a second..

It was more for Johnny Brown, knowing his diet.

[Fultonius]

Seems to me he's a once in a generation (or even once in many generations) climber who is best in the world at pretty much anything he turns his hand to and who seems to amaze other elite climbers just as much as he does armchair watchers.   

Let's not be forgetting Megos and Nalle.

The reason Ondra is ludicrous and amazing in my mind is that he's such a mad nerd. I think a similar thing would have happened if Megos rocked up, he just isn't likely to because he want's to do what he's doing atm.

Don't get me wrong, Ondra is a wonderful bastard, I just dislike talk of once in a generation and greatest. Maybe his want for variety alongside being up there (understatement I realise) strength wise makes him once in a generation. Who knows.

For my part I think what Nalle did with Burden of Dreams is more impressive, less mad and cool and out there for him, but more impressive.

Might get a bit vilified for this :D

I think what sets Ondra apart from Megos is his attitude. So many people at the top of the game still just repeat stuff, or do things somewhat in their comfort zone. I'm not saying Megos is always in his confort zone, but I just like the way Ondra publicly states his intentions, goes and has a bash like a total big wall punter and yet pulls through (clearly with a fair bit of media/public pressure to see him succeed/fail whatever).

And he does it with so little arrogance - just "that looks cool and hard and I'm going to go and try it". SuperWAD!

[36chambers]

Turned up in the Valley for the first time on 15th October.  Topped out on the Dawn Wall 22nd November.

I wonder how he'd do if he spent the same amount of time in Finland trying Burden of Dreams.   

[SA Chris]

It's not like Ondra's never done any granite climbing or multi pitch at all though;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/58371/interview_adam_ondra_is_tough_enough_-_madagascar

[Will Hunt]

  He's more sober than Mr. Zak. They are talking about going and do midnight lighting now. I'm sitting at the next table over.

UKB Post of the Year 2016.

[Footwork]

  He's more sober than Mr. Zak. They are talking about going and do midnight lighting now. I'm sitting at the next table over.

UKB Post of the Year 2016.

Are Jacob and Bron nearby? Say hello if so 

[Nemo]

"You have incredibly high expectations!" - Slackline

Maybe I didn't phrase that post quite right.  Agree with most of what you said - except perhaps the bit about style.  Think the two crux pitches - technical, vertical crimping - are absolutely his style, and that he is by a country mile the best at that type of climbing. 

But was really just agreeing with Duncan - ie: I don't think he "pathed it".  That would have been rocking up and doing it in a week.  Given what he'd done elsewhere, particularly Madagascar, I didn't think that was entirely out of the question.  I think, as Duncan suggests, it's good for all concerned, that it put up a bit more of a fight than that.

[rosmat]

  He's more sober than Mr. Zak. They are talking about going and do midnight lighting now. I'm sitting at the next table over.

UKB Post of the Year 2016.

Are Jacob and Bron nearby? Say hello if so 

Nah, they are in the Creek

[shark]

"You have incredibly high expectations!" - Slackline

Maybe I didn't phrase that post quite right.  Agree with most of what you said - except perhaps the bit about style.  Think the two crux pitches - technical, vertical crimping - are absolutely his style, and that he is by a country mile the best at that type of climbing. 

But was really just agreeing with Duncan - ie: I don't think he "pathed it".  That would have been rocking up and doing it in a week.  Given what he'd done elsewhere, particularly Madagascar, I didn't think that was entirely out of the question.  I think, as Duncan suggests, it's good for all concerned, that it put up a bit more of a fight than that.

Climbing maths is reversed with Ondra. Instead of a climbers ability being measured against the route and its grade, the route is measured against the Ondrawad.

Grade = Mass x Ondrawad²

[dave]

Ondra is now the SI unit of wadness. A model of him is going to be stored in a climate-controlled Paris bankvault.

[mark]

What's the conversion rate between an Ondra and the old imperial measure, the Fawcett?

[tomtom]

What's the conversion rate between an Ondra and the old imperial measure, the Fawcett?

Two turns and no drips.

[shark]

What's the conversion rate between an Ondra and the old imperial measure, the Fawcett?

There are two theories. Newtonian theory would have it as an absolute measure so an Ondrawad is worth 8.0 grades more than a Fawcett. The theory of relativity attributes a time value so the hardest grade in the World at the time would make an Ondrawad worth 1.5 grades more. Quantum physics makes it anyone's guess

[36chambers]

What's the conversion rate between an Ondra and the old imperial measure, the Fawcett?

There are two theories. Newtonian theory would have it as an absolute measure so an Ondrawad is worth 8.0 grades more than a Fawcett. The theory of relativity attributes a time value so the hardest grade in the World at the time would make an Ondrawad worth 1.5 grades more. Quantum physics makes it anyone's guess

Re: Relativistic effects. From our frame of reference (in the stationary frame of now) the true difficulty, within a moving frame (the past), will appear diminished, and vice versa.

[Rocksteady]

What's the conversion rate between an Ondra and the old imperial measure, the Fawcett?

There are two theories. Newtonian theory would have it as an absolute measure so an Ondrawad is worth 8.0 grades more than a Fawcett. The theory of relativity attributes a time value so the hardest grade in the World at the time would make an Ondrawad worth 1.5 grades more. Quantum physics makes it anyone's guess

Re: Relativistic effects. From our frame of reference (in the stationary frame of now) the true difficulty, within a moving frame (the past), will appear diminished, and vice versa.

On a quantum scale I imagine we will find there are actually three 'colours' of Ondra (standard, pain au raisin, pink Anasazi) and an anti-Ondra (also called a Megos) but that we can't actually see or measure any of them except by their impact on other things - snapped footholds on Dawn Wall traverse pitches etc.

So excited by this ascent I mentioned the 'news' at work. My colleagues were underwhelmed.

[SA Chris]

Likewise - tried to explain context, but underwhelmed response.

[Doylo]

First person to flash Jade and free Dawn Wall?