[petejh]

Fuck sake! Madness 

Ondra said 8b for the Oak when he onsighted it. I'll take his word for it.

Trolling cunt 

[moose]

I've not been on the route, but my ouija board tells me that the absorption all Shark's blood, sweat, and tears has given the Oak eerie voodoo powers; for those the rock deems unworthy, the grade is infinite.  Shark should abandon all that training and dieting nonsense and hire a warlock; his problems are nothing sacrificing a goat or two won't solve.

[Paul B]

Ondra said 8b for the Oak when he onsighted it. I'll take his word

Because someone operating way below max is best poised to give objective grade related feedback? 

Since the photo of Mawson holding a protein shake in that groove it's always tickled me that a kneebar (or two) in a power endurance route makes it anything but easier (no matter how minute).

I can remember speaking to someone straight after my first F8a (subculture) who rapidly pointed out it's slightly questioned grade. It hurt a bit...

[tomtom]

I've not been on the route, but my ouija board tells me that the absorption all Shark's blood, sweat, and tears has given the Oak eerie voodoo powers; for those the rock deems unworthy, the grade is infinite.  Shark should abandon all that training and dieting nonsense and hire a warlock; his problems are nothing sacrificing a goat or two won't solve.

Ah... now it all makes sense. Last time I was bouldering with Shark he muttered something about needing a piss - disappeared for 5 min in to the undergrowth - and came back with a still twitching dead squirrel between his teeth. He said it was for later and I thought nothing more of it. As you do.

Part of some Malham based witches ritual no doubt..

[petejh]

Ondra said 8b for the Oak when he onsighted it. I'll take his word

Because someone operating way below max is best poised to give objective grade related feedback? 

Since the photo of Mawson holding a protein shake in that groove it's always tickled me that a kneebar (or two) in a power endurance route makes it anything but easier (no matter how minute).

I can remember speaking to someone straight after my first F8a (subculture) who rapidly pointed out it's slightly questioned grade. It hurt a bit...

Well alright, every person who's ticked the routes on 8anu then.

I know Shark brought up the topic of Mecca's grade straight after it's first female ascent (great timing there Shark!) but nobody, except for a serial downgrader, seriously thinks Mecca is 8b or Oak 8a+. Do they?

[Paul B]

Shark's timing was stunning.

They're just routes that often pop up in discussion (add Bat Route to that list too), it doesn't necessarily mean they're all ripe for a downgrade but personally, they wouldn't be routes I'd chase in order to solely climb a number as it just seems a likely tactic for future disappointment/uncertainty.

Anyway most of this is way off knees and I'm re-typing this over and over trying not to piss on someone's chips as ultimately I don't really care. Is nothing happening in Dovedale?

[tomtom]

I heard there were no more small mammals left in Dovedale as they'd all been used in sacrifices....

[T_B]

I can remember speaking to someone straight after my first F8a (subculture) who rapidly pointed out it's slightly questioned grade. It hurt a bit...

It's funny that Subculture has that rep. For one reason or another, I've failed on Subculture about half a dozen times, last time falling off the 'easy' bit at the top three times in a row! It's soft, but it aint 7c+ IMO.

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar. But then Mawson reckons it's just about 8b+, so I'd take that as he is fairly stern when it comes to grading.

[Doylo]

Thing with Mecca is it was obviously a hell of a lot harder pre rubber pads. The last boulder problem was a heartbreaker when pumped stupid whereas it seems now if you can get to the groove it's just a matter of time. Someone get Sharples a kneepad for Christmas. I have no opinion on the grade as I've only been on it once. Like the look of that kneebar though 

[Doylo]

I can remember speaking to someone straight after my first F8a (subculture) who rapidly pointed out it's slightly questioned grade. It hurt a bit...

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar.

I know one too. Wonder if it's the same person... Not too many 9a climbers about.

[petejh]

It's funny that Subculture has that rep. For one reason or another, I've failed on Subculture about half a dozen times, last time falling off the 'easy' bit at the top three times in a row! It's soft, but it aint 7c+ IMO.

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar. But then Mawson reckons it's just about 8b+, so I'd take that as he is fairly stern when it comes to grading.

But going by Paul's logic a 9a climber isn't able to accurately determine the grade of a route well below his limit. So, can they or can't they?

Shark's timing was stunning.

They're just routes that often pop up in discussion (add Bat Route to that list too), it doesn't necessarily mean they're all ripe for a downgrade but personally, they wouldn't be routes I'd chase in order to solely climb a number as it just seems a likely tactic for future disappointment/uncertainty.

Anyway most of this is way off knees and I'm re-typing this over and over trying not to piss on someone's chips as ultimately I don't really care. Is nothing happening in Dovedale?

It's (mildly) interesting this . I'm definitely trying Mecca so I can say I've climbed 8b+. As well as it being a fuck-off great route. That's what people do and there shouldn't be any questioning of that desire in climbing really. I also climb because I love climbing. Mecca's a good choice because it ticks both boxes - satisfy my desire to climb a grade harder, and being a great route.

As for not choosing Mecca as a first 8b+ because it might be downgraded, I don't see your logic? It won't be - unless something drastically changes - because it's 8b+ in its current state. Unless a couple of good holds appear. And even then whoever climbed it before would have still climbed the level of 8b+.

Of course once you've done one hopefully you can consolidate.


Anyway, heelspurs is where it's at.

[Three Nine]

I can remember speaking to someone straight after my first F8a (subculture) who rapidly pointed out it's slightly questioned grade. It hurt a bit...

It's funny that Subculture has that rep. For one reason or another, I've failed on Subculture about half a dozen times, last time falling off the 'easy' bit at the top three times in a row! It's soft, but it aint 7c+ IMO.

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar. But then Mawson reckons it's just about 8b+, so I'd take that as he is fairly stern when it comes to grading.

I thought subculture was the hardest of the 8as i've done at kilnsey.

[Paul B]

I'll clarify when I'm near a keyboard.

[Johnny Brown]

Mecca is the most popular route of the grade in the country. As a result, there is a lot more beta around and therefore that makes it more doable. Which is not quite the same as making it easier, and therefore ripe for a downgrade. There's no beta more powerful than knowing that your mate who is worse than you has done it.

[Stu Littlefair]

Mecca is 8b.

The Oak is 8a+

Rainshadow is 8c+

Buerre Marga is 8a.

there we are. we can talk about knees again now.

[dave]

Mecca is the most popular route of the grade in the country. As a result, there is a lot more beta around and therefore that makes it more doable.

There's also a no-hands rest half way up.

[Bonjoy]

Mecca was middle/low power endurance 8b+ pre kneebar. Having spent three seasons trying it pre kneebar (and not being a 9a climber) and having since tried out the kneebar (its good once you have the knack) - I have zero doubt that it is a MUCH easier prospect these days. The current grade is only held together by collective wishfull thinking and hubris. Seriously Pete I thought you were above that sort of self delusion  .

[petejh]

Well hopefully I am. *I* think I am.

First of all, did you do it Bonjoy?

Second, See Stu's comment. If Mecca is 8b then Oak is 8a+, etc. etc. etc. You'd have to downgrade a whole load of routes - I imagine, not being peak-based I don't know the details - to keep it sensible. If it *is* 8b then it's a fucking nails one! And presumably Mecca Extension and Haj are 8b+, and Kabba 8c? Make it Funky 8b+?

As I said it's 8b (and harder than The Oak) just to get to the groove. A long font 7c/+ to there. Then a font 7a+ to finish, following a rest the utility of which seems to differ between people's ability to kneebar/leg length but it isn't like hanging from a jug and standing on a big foothold.

I dunno, 8b+ seems fair but I'm no expert. But then the experts (Ondra being one) are dismissed as supposedly 'too good' to be able to know (regarding Oak being 8b).... unless you're one of the experts we like - in which case they know. Confusing and conflicting logic at work.

[petejh]

Can't we just ask Jens? He'd know.

[Bonjoy]

 No I didn't. Like you, a fair part of my motivation was the grade...
The Oak was given 8a+ when I did it. At the time I thought it was harder than Magnetic which I did the same season and for me the grades could have been reversed. All of which proves nothing.
I havent been on any of Meccas extensions. I imagine the kneebar makes a big difference to Kabba but not the others due to the rest on the flake. 2 + 2 rarely makes 4 when it comes to link ups anyway.
Its all just opinions but I do think grades, especially Mecca's are hostage to the vested interests of folk defending their most hard won prizes.

[petejh]

True enough. And it's possible they're hard-enough won to warrant the number given.

[nai]

And presumably Mecca Extension  8b+?

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar.

Maybe it's this 9a climber, he doesn't sound totally convinced by 8c for the Extension.

https://twitter.com/moonclimbing/status/390112529596166145

[Paul B]

I dunno, 8b+ seems fair but I'm no expert. But then the experts (Ondra being one) are dismissed as supposedly 'too good' to be able to know (regarding Oak being 8b).... unless you're one of the experts we like - in which case they know. Confusing and conflicting logic at work.

My logic is that someone onsighting or repointing well below their max (critically in this case OS max) isn't the best person to give objective feedback on the difference between a letter and a plus. Seriously, how far do you trust your own judgement with this? Your ability to have the most efficient sequence?

Only this week both Barrows and I were struggling to differentiate between a 12b and a 12d, both thinking the b was as hard as the d. Maybe it was? Conditions weren't good etc.so who knows? That said neither of us are Ondrawad and have that wealth of experience.

These differences are compounded by lack of familiarity with the area and even the country although you're more likely to get something that is a 'best fit' for the differences between countries etc. from as traveling Wad.

It might be daft but I'd trust a range of UK 8a+/8b redpointers to contextualise a route of that grade in line with the local routes which makes sense.

It's funny that Subculture has that rep. For one reason or another, I've failed on Subculture about half a dozen times, last time falling off the 'easy' bit at the top three times in a row! It's soft, but it aint 7c+ IMO.

As for Mecca, I know a certain 9a climber who said to me he thinks it's 8b now with the knee bar. But then Mawson reckons it's just about 8b+, so I'd take that as he is fairly stern when it comes to grading.

But going by Paul's logic a 9a climber isn't able to accurately determine the grade of a route well below his limit. So, can they or can't they?

Shark's timing was stunning.

They're just routes that often pop up in discussion (add Bat Route to that list too), it doesn't necessarily mean they're all ripe for a downgrade but personally, they wouldn't be routes I'd chase in order to solely climb a number as it just seems a likely tactic for future disappointment/uncertainty.

Anyway most of this is way off knees and I'm re-typing this over and over trying not to piss on someone's chips as ultimately I don't really care. Is nothing happening in Dovedale?

It's (mildly) interesting this . I'm definitely trying Mecca so I can say I've climbed 8b+. As well as it being a fuck-off great route. That's what people do and there shouldn't be any questioning of that desire in climbing really. I also climb because I love climbing. Mecca's a good choice because it ticks both boxes - satisfy my desire to climb a grade harder, and being a great route.

As for not choosing Mecca as a first 8b+ because it might be downgraded, I don't see your logic? It won't be - unless something drastically changes - because it's 8b+ in its current state. Unless a couple of good holds appear. And even then whoever climbed it before would have still climbed the level of 8b+.

Just replace holds in that paragraph with knees and that's the sticking point for me if solely looking to climb a grade. On your other point I'll concede I'm a bit off in that it's entirely wise to pick something 'low hanging', consolidate and continue. I'd always thought of it more as a sole trophy in a cabinet, won on a technicality, which is maybe just my cynicism at work (although see the Dovedale/ State of threads).

I've just returned from the states and my mind is a bit foggy, apologies if the above is nonsensical!

[petejh]

Well, I'm an 8a - b redpointer, as are most people sessioning Mecca. And to me it feels every bit 8b+.


And, cynical? - Duh yes! Just a bit! I mean take your mindset and apply it 3 grades higher and Ben Moon has one 'sole' 9a in his 'trophy cabinet' (or two depending who you listen to). Likewise Stu - a sole 9a in his 'trophy cabinet'. Same for Jordan, Ryan etc. You could say the same about loads of people at all sorts of ability levels from 9a+ down to 8a.

So why single out 8b+ climbers on Mecca? I'd hazard the suggestion: 'because it's close to *your* ability level'. And that smacks of... something..

[Paul B]

Well, I'm an 8a - b redpointer, as are most people sessioning Mecca. And to me it feels every bit 8b+.

You missed this bit:

It might be daft but I'd trust a range of UK 8a+/8b redpointers to contextualise a route of that grade in line with the local routes

So, in relation to PUTP (F8a+, for your bouldery analogy)? Monsterosity (F8b, power endurance)? You're saying it's harder than Dev Arms (F8a++) to the groove? I'm not expecting answers here I just think if one route isn't contextualized in it's locality then it makes little sense, and wholesale re-grading (or grade-inflation) isn't a workable solution.

So why single out 8b+ climbers on Mecca? I'd hazard the suggestion: 'because it's close to *your* ability level'. And that smacks of... something..

I'm not singling out anybody, it just happens to be a thread about kneepads, specifically for Mecca, so it kinda popped up. If you want to go back in time there was a very similar debate with regards to Ben's Roof; my opinions on holiday grades, new beta on routes/problems etc. haven't changed and can be seen in loads of places (I'm sure plenty of forum members can attest to that, even if they don't agree with my opinions). Also, as you can see by the above, it's not just something I struggle to get my head around.

One thing it definitely smacks of is me not learning when to keep my own opinions to myself and perhaps being more grade bothered (I'll use bothered rather than focused) than I care to admit; social media irks me with this where people (and sometimes brands) willfully manipulate things for advertising.

Its all just opinions

It's always going to boil down to the above, so  I'm going to stop bickering. Which pad are you buying?