[Luke Owens]

I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..

Fair play to him, I'm thinking..

It's what sponsors want. Get out there, do something different, celebrate what gets done. We're also disregarding Joe's approach to the route, how hard he found it. That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to.
Repeating sports routes at grades that were established 20 years ago probably isn't of interest to many people (?).

I doubt that JH went out of his way to overgrade his route. It's probably E8 anyway.. I didn't want to say anything too negative initially, but my only nagging thought was that some of the pro on EWS was too sketchy. Very small wires in limestone often blow out, and I thought that might make the route a crap proposition as an on-sight. The fact that the gear is better than it appears in the video, sounds great for the classic status of the route. There aren't many good new routes of that ilk being established.

[mic_b]

"first go no falls after top rope inspection."

Is this just worked it on a top rope and after 'x' number of sessions did it without falling off?

Or is it somehow different / better?

[moose]

Just out of interest, did anyone other than Jordan repeat Nik's Exodus at Kilnsey:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22256.0/all.html

Limestone trad, Nik thought F8a+ climbing with spicy fall potential.  Jordan went in for quick repeat: F7c with bomber gear. 

As ever. I always suspect the middleground is the truth: first ascents can be over-graded because the first ascensionist can't help but factor in the travails of developing the route (cleaning, uncovering holds and protection placements) into the perceived difficulty level.  And... Jordan is very, very, very, very strong.

[Fiend]

That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today 

[petejh]

I remember being out on the grit last winter and some fella who I'd never met before was banging on about wanting to "enhance his social media image" and had been approached by a sponsor because of a photo on Instagram. He was keen to tell me he'd almost climbed 8a and all his "top ascents" before I actually knew what his name was..

Fair play to him, I'm thinking..

It's what sponsors want. Get out there, do something different, celebrate what gets done. We're also disregarding Joe's approach to the route, how hard he found it. That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to.
Repeating sports routes at grades that were established 20 years ago probably isn't of interest to many people (?).

I doubt that JH went out of his way to overgrade his route. It's probably E8 anyway.. I didn't want to say anything too negative initially, but my only nagging thought was that some of the pro on EWS was too sketchy. Very small wires in limestone often blow out, and I thought that might make the route a crap proposition as an on-sight. The fact that the gear is better than it appears in the video, sounds great for the classic status of the route. There aren't many good new routes of that ilk being established.

No, people aren't *that* interested in repeats of sport routes at grades that were established 20 years ago.

And here we've got two trad routes. Each route seemingly about as difficult. Each received about as much publicity as the other (from what I can gather on my rough off-the-cuff-ometer after a glance today).
But only one route is actually significant - 8b on trad on limestone! As you'll know that isn't some 20-year old has-been grade for limestone trad (or any trad), that's quite cutting edge.
The other route is reportedly 7c/+, on ok gear. That's 20-30 year old standards and acheivable by amateur punters these days. Not even sponsorship or a film-crew required!

But, going off the amount of self-publicity, twattergrambook activity and associated media coverage/interviews etc. you'd think the two routes were comparably significant achievements in climbing.

It kind of goes to the heart of why a lot of people are jaded and fed up with sponsored spraylords and lasses. You've got to admit the whole self reportage social media thing and make a film about everything is a bit of a massive piss-take to put it mildly.

I don't know you, but I find it hard to believe you honestly think 'fair play' for someone unashamedly pushing their profile to the max just in order to grab some climbing sponsorship and recognition, without backing it up with concrete climbing achievements of some significance? I don't. I think 'that's bullshit. Why bother?'.
Fair enough undoubtedly well-intended bullshit by someone psyched for new routes. And no doubt a consequence of the ability these days for anyone who wishes to publicise any insignificant act to do so like never before; but with the result that polished presentation may garner as much recognition as something of genuine substance.


The old line 'That story is something a lot of other climbers will be able to relate to'. Well yes it is. But so is onsighting VS but I don't see 5.10 lining up to sponsor Offwidth.
(no slight intended OW - you just sprang to mind as someone on here who climbs VSs!)



*Unless they happen to be 50 year-old ledges, or female, or have spent 8 years trying a route of a grade that was established 30 years ago. then it's still interesting.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Re "people aren't *that* interested in repeats of sport routes at grades that were established 20 years ago".

What I'm referring to, is the notion that many people have, that sponsorship is some how a just reward for a higher number. It doesn't follow; firms support climbers in order to increase brand awareness, to shift product. There seems to be so much jealousy flying around. I'd just rather applaud the effort of going out there and doing something a little different. I've always thought that it's that spirit which is most marketable anyway.

I suppose I'm not comfortable with the put downs. The most amazing thing for me when I moved to Sheffield 30 years ago, was that it seemed no-one really gave a flying fig about the grade you climbed, a burning keenness was all that mattered. A shared enthusiasm.

What is it saying, if people are so concerned about the attention that others get, that it outweighs their own motivations for climbing - and sharing that with others?

If I felt that JH wasn't in fact as keen as mustard, then perhaps I'd feel there was a problem - but whose place is it to make that call anyway? Here we have two interpretations of the route, from two different climbers, each with their own motivations, and I can imagine that the truth lies somewhere in between.

Of course everyone likes a bit of attention, but there seems to be climbing and commerce, which are two different things. I suppose I'm applauding the former here, but it's the climber who is sponsored, after all, not the routes climbed. Joe marketing his exploits, is a greater problem for some than others, I just find it incredibly mean spirited for people to chop others down at the first opportunity. What's that about?

[ferret]

I'd actually never heard of this guy before this thread. After googling him I was quite surprised that he was receiving sponsorship.
I guess this is the new brand ambassador mold, above average at climbing, an engaging personality and heavily involved in social media. If this is what the brands are looking for, then I can't fault the lad for taking the opportunity.
However if you do a 1st ascent, give it a big grade with very little experience to back it up and then spray it all over the internet, you have to expect to get publicly called out when your grade is way out.
Personally if it was me (and I got my sponsorship deals more through what I did on the internet than what I did on the rock), if a big downgrade happened, I would expect people to think that I inflated the grade for publicity. After all they don't know me, all they know is i get my sponsorship through promoting myself and my sponsors brands.

[Franco]

That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today 

Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..

[tomtom]

I think we need some cast iron unedited video footage that this has gone off topic before we can make calls like that.

THIS IS IMPORTANT after all...

[Doylo]

That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today 

Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..

Maybe he thinks they're crap.

[Andy F]

That's what I was thinking. First young nik's Kilnsey route, now this.....are there no depths that Jordan won't sink to to destroy the hopes and ambitions of the youth of today 

Climbing the hardest of the moors? Think I'm correct in saying the moors is one of the few areas now he hasn't climbed E/H9, despite him having spent time there... Obviously beaten off even by the mere grade of moors H9..

Maybe he thinks they're crap.

Maybe life is just to short.

[Franco]

A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.

[petejh]

DaveT -

That's a pretty standard response, the 'jealous' one.

It isn't 'mean spirited' and there's zero jealousy - from my end at least, can't speak for anyone else's motivations. I earn too good a wage doing a proper job and get far too much time off to climb at a level I'm content with (new routing whenever possible) to be jealous of any climber working a shit job spending hours on social media trying to create an image. I can't think of anything less appealing than trying to sprinkle glitter over a turd on facebook.

I'm pointing out that the situation around 'profile' in climbing is absurd.
 
Climbing is 99.9% an amateur activity. It's absurd that average climbers are now calling themselves 'Sportspeople', when they're at the same level of competence/ability as hundreds of everyday climbers with full-time jobs who just 'go climbing'. 
I find it ridiculous dedicating significant time into what would have been called PR, and engaging in that kind of social-media language - you know the type, that portrays what they're doing as significant. Attaching brand labels to activities to lend them greater credence. It's misrepresentation of yourself, your skill level, and the whole activity of climbing.

It takes thousands of hours and years of practice to get to the ability level of the real cutting edge atheletes in a sport. It's like that for trad, sport-climbing or bouldering. Calling yourself a 'sportsperson' and then instabooking everything, in that 'I'm so lucky to be doing xyz' language is just bullshit, unless you're the real deal. Even then it's mildly off-putting!

Maybe I'm wrong and we're all semi-professional 'sportspeople' now.

[Andy F]

A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.

Very true. So when are you going to leave the moors and try something outside your comfort zone?

[36chambers]

A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.

Very true. So when are you going to leave the moors and try something outside your comfort zone?

Following on from DT90's comments about people going out and doing things and other people being mean spirited, etc.

Andy, can you please stop with all the Moors bashing. Thank you.

[Bonjoy]

A convenient excuse. Actions speak louder than "spray" though Andy.

#cough# Dangermouse #cough#    I havent forgotten that uneaten hat of mine

[Nigel]

Climbing is 99.9% an amateur activity. It's absurd that average climbers are now calling themselves 'Sportspeople', when they're at the same level of competence/ability as hundreds of everyday climbers with full-time jobs who just 'go climbing'. 

Not fussed about commenting on the rest, but this general point from Pete is a fair one. Climbers only became "athletes" after the invention of Facebook. Despite doing nothing different from Kirkus / Brown / Fawcett through the ages, or indeed most weekend warriors down the wall. I too find that annoying.

[JR]

He did kick the gear out. Maybe that was the E9 bit?

I promise we've all been there...

[Will Hunt]

Just an aside about the Moors stuff. Andy's comments are pitiful. Tom Randall and Birkett have been there and confirmed the stuff is legit. Not to mention that Dave Warbs has climbed a load of the same stuff as Franco and isn't shy of tricky routes outside the Moors. The idea that you would write off a huge number of significant new routes, many of which look very very good, because somebody hasn't done any hard routes near Sheffield is ridiculous.

[Andy F]

Just an aside about the Moors stuff. Andy's comments are pitiful. Tom Randall and Birkett have been there and confirmed the stuff is legit. Not to mention that Dave Warbs has climbed a load of the same stuff as Franco and isn't shy of tricky routes outside the Moors. The idea that you would write off a huge number of significant new routes, many of which look very very good, because somebody hasn't done any hard routes near Sheffield is ridiculous.

Since when has proximity to Sheffield been important? I have agreed that at least one of his routes/highballs is the right grade, so well done. However, his persistence to give his own routes vast numbers without any evidence of benchmarking outside his own patch will always raise eyebrows and get people asking questions. They may well be exceptional routes, and the right grade, or even harder, but the doubts will continue until he does a route, or routes outside the moors which are recognized as a national standard.

[Franco]

[quote author= However, his persistence to give his own routes vast numbers without any evidence of benchmarking outside his own patch will always raise eyebrows and get people asking questions.

Raise eyebrows then. Don't imply some kind of moral failing.

[nik at work]

As ever. I always suspect the middleground is the truth...
 And... Jordan is very, very, very, very strong.

This.
Also i don't know this Joe Healy guy, and indeed hadn't heard about him before this route, which suggests either i'm wildly out of touch with the climbing 'scene'  or he's not the massive spray-whore that appears to be suggested. Either of which could be the case
Nice repeat Jordan.

[petejh]

If you stay off facebonk and instagram you probably wouldn't notice Nik. I don't partake myself, but often get sent - by n.wales's finest agent provocateur - screenshots of some spraywhore or other's latest adventures. It's as if there's two worlds in climbing now, the real one with everyday people climbing hard just about every weekend somewhere in the UK; and the social media one where it seems driving up the road to go on a climbing trip is cause for #insert_brand_name_here  and  #my_passion_is_self_promotion

My points aren't directed at any one person but the general trend of social media 'profile-raising' bullshit.

[Will Hunt]

I agree with everything that you've said, Pete, but there's a thread for that:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26882.325.html

This thread is about a particular route in the Peak, put up by a particular person. Let's not make it personal.