[jfdm]

Woops think others may have posted this....

[bendavison]

I was more worried that the guy filming was gonna fall off the cliff than Honnold off the route

[bigtuboflard]

I was more worried that the guy filming was gonna fall off the cliff than Honnold off the route

that footage was terrifying. Had they been on the pop all day?

[danm]

Stuff like that must feel pretty chill when he's actually using a rope. Not going to be scared on run outs is he.

Interestingly, perhaps the opposite. JR said he could see obvious signs of fear in Alex when he was filming this.(He also goes on to say it was also obvious how good he is at holding it together, as he looked scared but carried on climbing with absolute precision and icy control). One of the things Alex said during the lecture tour is that the times he has been in most danger when climbing have all been when roped. The only time he felt he's really pushed the boat out when soloing was when he first did Half Dome - although he'd climbed it once previously, this wasn't in preparation for the solo which meant there were parts of it where he didn't have a secure method of doing the moves already worked out. Usually for his solo ascents, he does.

[dave]

I'm currently reading the Honnold book, it's pretty good. What's interesting is the bits cut in from other people like climbers, photographers or filmmakers he's climbing with or near - generally pretty experienced folks, and general they feel a lot less happy about his capacity to pull it off and hold it together than he feels he is at the time. There's more than one occasion where partners have felt he's being too blasé about danger and too cocksure, whereas he seems to be able to rationalise it. I suppose we've all experienced this to an extent, either soloing something or leading something necky or witnessing someone solo something you think they shouldn't.

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

[tomtom]

You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Like most experiences of fast food joints then...

[galpinos]

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

[Oldmanmatt]

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

And most of the "Leave" campaign.


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[dave]

Yeah that's the phrase I was looking for. I've always been able to remember the phrase "confirmation bias" in the past, so I naturally assumed I would remember it this time.

[tomtom]

Yeah that's the phrase I was looking for. I've always been able to remember the phrase "confirmation bias" in the past, so I naturally assumed I would remember it this time.

And in a wonderful irony, based on the above, now we're all happy with confirmation bias, confirmation bias has confirmed itself...

[andy popp]

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

[galpinos]

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

[Fultonius]

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Thinking back to the last few years n Chamonix, this was a terrible trap that we all got caught it. It's very hard to perceive the true risk, even worse when you do the same routes/tours/descents regularly but in changing conditions.

[tomtom]

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

[galpinos]

Thinking back to the last few years n Chamonix, this was a terrible trap that we all got caught it. It's very hard to perceive the true risk, even worse when you do the same routes/tours/descents regularly but in changing conditions.

I think it happens to everyone to a certain extent. There's also some interesting research that's been done in the US about the affects of groups and group size on decision making when skiing/touring which is also pretty prevalent when doing seasons. All this is going down the line of Heuristic Traps though which is even more off topic than confirmation bias.....

[shark]

I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

I think for the purposes of discussion (on UKB at least  )only (b) is relevant and that leads on to how aware we can be of the risk (through experience) and then what level of uncertainty you can guess at for the unforeseen (birds flying out of holes etc). Then mix in a bit of human factors (tiredness etc) and then behavioral psychology and biases. Then it comes down to how much you want to do the route or not.   

[Oldmanmatt]

I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

I think for the purposes of discussion (on UKB at least  )only (b) is relevant and that leads on to how aware we can be of the risk (through experience) and then what level of uncertainty you can guess at for the unforeseen (birds flying out of holes etc). Then mix in a bit of human factors (tiredness etc) and then behavioral psychology and biases. Then it comes down to how much you want to do the route or not.

I was Bouldering in the canyons at Columbia, just outside Yosemite; when I pulled over a lip to top out and came face to face with a rattlesnake. At least I think it was. Didn't hang around to check.
No pads either. It hurt.


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[Bonjoy]

What's interesting is the bits cut in from other people like climbers, photographers or filmmakers he's climbing with or near - generally pretty experienced folks, and general they feel a lot less happy about his capacity to pull it off and hold it together than he feels he is at the time. There's more than one occasion where partners have felt he's being too blasé about danger and too cocksure, whereas he seems to be able to rationalise it. I suppose we've all experienced this to an extent, either soloing something or leading something necky or witnessing someone solo something you think they shouldn't.

It's hard to see how outside observers can make any accurate judgement on this, unless Alex is obviously wildly sketching. Watching someone soloing something hard when you would never dream of doing the same thing yourself is always going to make you feel queasy, which will surely have an influence on how you assess what you are observing. I think it more likely that the observer is making an inaccurate judgement rather than Alex.

[Muenchener]

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

Soemtimes you are aware of just how lucky you've been. Two mates of mine- cautious, expereienced family men - had a snow layer whumph under them on a tour. I was curious when they got back and told me* about it: after you've changed your underpants, wtf is the next thing you do?

* but not their wives. I was/am sworn to secrecy

[SA Chris]

I have phone footage of a friend crosscutting (or is it called ski cutting?)a gully in the Cairngorms and the top foot or so of snow going. Could have been nasty as it's narrow and twisting. I've been sworn to never share it.

[T_B]

I thought he came across as a bit of a tit in Grimer's podcast tbh. A life of living in a climbing vacuum perhaps and/or me becoming a grumpy old git? Anyhoos, the consequences of what he does if he messes up are so black and white, compared to e.g. riding a motorbike really fast, that I can't help but find his 'tude a bit arrogant. Let's face it, a lot of the soloists and big risk takers around climbing are no longer with us. And him not falling to his death soloing is not proof that it's 'safe'. All that said, his ability to switch off fear to the extent where he can do what he does is quite simply amazing. And I suspect that's it. Who is going to give up a gift like that?

[dave]

I haven't listened to the podcast yet as I wanted to finish the book* first. What's interesting about the book is it's made pretty clear when other people have found him a bit of a tit, not one of those sanitised (auto)bios we've seen in recent years.

*I should point out to anyone who hasn't read it, the Honnold book is written as part autobiography and part biography, alternating sections written by Honnold and the other guy (who as it turns out did some big ascents back in the day with Galen Rowell - props!).

[jfdm]

Yikes.

[Will Hunt]

Really good of the cameraman to show off so many different areas of the crag. Fairhead looks great.

[SA Chris]

Alex Honnold and The Dark Side  and Alex Honnold and the Complete Scream could be great names for a series of children's books.

[dave]

I thought he came across as a bit of a tit in Grimer's podcast tbh.

Listened to it last night, enjoyed it, didn't think he came across as that much of a tit - a touch arrogant perhaps, but when you're the best you afford to be (bit like Jerry in his prime?).

[Johnny Brown]

Alex is one of the sounder yanks I've met, very intelligent guy. I dare say I'd sound a bit arrogant if I'd dedicated my life to something, was better than it than anyone before, and yet self-righteous 'experts' continually told me I didn't really have a proper perspective on the risks.

[a dense loner]

Exactly!

[JR]

Interestingly, perhaps the opposite. JR said he could see obvious signs of fear in Alex when he was filming this.(He also goes on to say it was also obvious how good he is at holding it together, as he looked scared but carried on climbing with absolute precision and icy control).

Alex was pretty open about it being scary once he topped out too. 

Agree with JB. He's really robotically calculated about stuff, and he's got it dialled when it comes to mental control.  Part of the deal with doing this stuff is being ultra-confident and that's what comes across, sometimes people are going to interpret that as arrogant.

Complete Scream is an ideal route for soloing if you're into that sort of thing.  Loads of rests, mainly on your feet and even though there's weird booming flakes, almost all the stuff you pull on is solid, plus the gear's pretty poor anyway all the way up.  Did you see the conditions Nick climbed it in?!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGaE7amOAlM/

Jordan also did the Dark Side the next morning.

[a dense loner]

Strong orange talentless dog!

[shark]

Jordan also did the Dark Side the next morning.

Next morning? Jordan did the Dark Side on Monday (and it was sunny then).

Here's my pic:

[Fultonius]

When did you get out to Fairhead Shark?  We were there until Sunday so must have just missed you.

[shark]

When did you get out to Fairhead Shark?  We were there until Sunday so must have just missed you.

Monday afternoon. Got back last night. Think you had the best of the weather.

[Fultonius]

Gutted, looks like you still got a few things done though. Face Value was really good eh?

[shark]

Gutted, looks like you still got a few things done though. Face Value was really good eh?

Very happy with what we did. Routes were pretty long, tiring and physical particularly after a long trad layoff so I would have struggled to do more even if the weather had been better.

Would like to go back but the logistics of a shortish trip are a pain. As there were two of us we ended up going on an Easyjet flight from Manchester to Belfast and getting a hire car (stung for £80 of car insurance we didn't want). I expect 4 in a car from Holyhead to Dublin is the best option. Apparently cheaper if you book it as I driver and 3 foot passengers.       

[Fultonius]

It was a bit of a cash hungry trip for us too - last minute ferry booking for the van, driver and a passenger - £270 return! If I was going back I'd be more organised and try to save a bit somehow.

We blasted in 3 routes for the first couple of days, then 2, then 1... Our brains seemed to be tiring quicker than our arms though! Intense, absorbing climbing.

[SA Chris]

Did you get ferry from Stranraer Ali?

[Fultonius]

Yeah. Just checked for a month away and it's more like £150 return, so if we'd been a bit more organised....  Still, it only cost us £2.84 per "E" point and £3.20 per * (for the ferry) so a pretty high quality & value for money trip 

[SA Chris]

Then there's the craic. Priceless.

[SA Chris]

http://nautil.us/issue/39/sport/the-strange-brain-of-the-worlds-greatest-solo-climber

Interesting article