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Alex Honnold and The Dark Side (Read 15390 times)

jfdm

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Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 08, 2016, 07:59:15 pm

Woops think others may have posted this....
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 08:14:50 pm by jfdm »

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#1 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 08, 2016, 08:35:36 pm
I was more worried that the guy filming was gonna fall off the cliff than Honnold off the route

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#2 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 08, 2016, 08:56:21 pm
I was more worried that the guy filming was gonna fall off the cliff than Honnold off the route
that footage was terrifying. Had they been on the pop all day?

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#3 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 08:52:58 am
Stuff like that must feel pretty chill when he's actually using a rope. Not going to be scared on run outs is he.

Interestingly, perhaps the opposite. JR said he could see obvious signs of fear in Alex when he was filming this.(He also goes on to say it was also obvious how good he is at holding it together, as he looked scared but carried on climbing with absolute precision and icy control). One of the things Alex said during the lecture tour is that the times he has been in most danger when climbing have all been when roped. The only time he felt he's really pushed the boat out when soloing was when he first did Half Dome - although he'd climbed it once previously, this wasn't in preparation for the solo which meant there were parts of it where he didn't have a secure method of doing the moves already worked out. Usually for his solo ascents, he does.

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#4 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:08:45 am
I'm currently reading the Honnold book, it's pretty good. What's interesting is the bits cut in from other people like climbers, photographers or filmmakers he's climbing with or near - generally pretty experienced folks, and general they feel a lot less happy about his capacity to pull it off and hold it together than he feels he is at the time. There's more than one occasion where partners have felt he's being too blasé about danger and too cocksure, whereas he seems to be able to rationalise it. I suppose we've all experienced this to an extent, either soloing something or leading something necky or witnessing someone solo something you think they shouldn't.

What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

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#5 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:30:45 am
You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Like most experiences of fast food joints then... ;)

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#6 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:41:40 am
What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

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#7 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:42:55 am
What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

And most of the "Leave" campaign.


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#8 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:43:26 am
Yeah that's the phrase I was looking for. I've always been able to remember the phrase "confirmation bias" in the past, so I naturally assumed I would remember it this time.

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#9 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:49:56 am
Yeah that's the phrase I was looking for. I've always been able to remember the phrase "confirmation bias" in the past, so I naturally assumed I would remember it this time.

And in a wonderful irony, based on the above, now we're all happy with confirmation bias, confirmation bias has confirmed itself...

:)

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#10 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:06:24 am
What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

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#11 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:12:53 am
I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

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#12 Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:19:54 am
What does strike you is that generally he's pretty well prepared and meticulous, but still gets into some near-miss type episodes by the sounds of it, or episodes where you suspect the level of control he's perceiving himself has having is in part an illusion. You have to wonder if early experiences, such as his pathing of the moonlight buttress route, can contribute to the kind of survival-risk-validation type thing you get with shit like proximity wingsuit stuff, where you get away with it a few times then based on that assume you've got a level of control of all the risk that you actually don't.

Confirmation bias. Quite powerful and very dangerous. Exhibited by 90% of the British skiing/snowboarding public when off-piste - I've never been avalanched therefore I'm really good at assessing avalanche conditions. Scary stuff.

I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.


Thinking back to the last few years n Chamonix, this was a terrible trap that we all got caught it. It's very hard to perceive the true risk, even worse when you do the same routes/tours/descents regularly but in changing conditions.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 10:25:54 am by Fultonius »

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#13 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:31:16 am
I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

:)

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#14 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:59:38 am
Thinking back to the last few years n Chamonix, this was a terrible trap that we all got caught it. It's very hard to perceive the true risk, even worse when you do the same routes/tours/descents regularly but in changing conditions.

I think it happens to everyone to a certain extent. There's also some interesting research that's been done in the US about the affects of groups and group size on decision making when skiing/touring which is also pretty prevalent when doing seasons. All this is going down the line of Heuristic Traps though which is even more off topic than confirmation bias.....

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#15 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 11:05:30 am
I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

:)

I think for the purposes of discussion (on UKB at least  :) )only (b) is relevant and that leads on to how aware we can be of the risk (through experience) and then what level of uncertainty you can guess at for the unforeseen (birds flying out of holes etc). Then mix in a bit of human factors (tiredness etc) and then behavioral psychology and biases. Then it comes down to how much you want to do the route or not.   


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#16 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 11:37:27 am
I'm going to be a bit picky here - as what we're really talking about are objective risks - ie risks we cannot account for... snow conditions is a really good one - but in the soloing (even on reliable grit etc..) example, this would be hold breakage - or possibly rock fall.. In mountaineering/winter climbing of course these objective risks/dangers are much greater than rock climbing... My analogy for this is that rock climbing is like driving a car, whereas winter climbing is like riding a motorbike. Both can be perfectly safe and controlled, but theres greater chance of an unknown screwign things up (badly) in the latter...

But in all, those taking the risks are either (a) stupid and unaware of them (your example galpinos), (b) aware of the risks, but calculate they are not significant due to their own experience/confidence or (c) aware of them and stupid

:)

I think for the purposes of discussion (on UKB at least  :) )only (b) is relevant and that leads on to how aware we can be of the risk (through experience) and then what level of uncertainty you can guess at for the unforeseen (birds flying out of holes etc). Then mix in a bit of human factors (tiredness etc) and then behavioral psychology and biases. Then it comes down to how much you want to do the route or not.
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No pads either. It hurt.


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#17 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 12:49:24 pm
What's interesting is the bits cut in from other people like climbers, photographers or filmmakers he's climbing with or near - generally pretty experienced folks, and general they feel a lot less happy about his capacity to pull it off and hold it together than he feels he is at the time. There's more than one occasion where partners have felt he's being too blasé about danger and too cocksure, whereas he seems to be able to rationalise it. I suppose we've all experienced this to an extent, either soloing something or leading something necky or witnessing someone solo something you think they shouldn't.

It's hard to see how outside observers can make any accurate judgement on this, unless Alex is obviously wildly sketching. Watching someone soloing something hard when you would never dream of doing the same thing yourself is always going to make you feel queasy, which will surely have an influence on how you assess what you are observing. I think it more likely that the observer is making an inaccurate judgement rather than Alex.

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#18 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 01:12:20 pm
I've definitely been guilty of this: I never hurt myself, therefore all the soloing was perfectly reasonable and sensible.

Though, in your defense, when climbing/soloing, you sometimes do know when things were at the limit/when you nearly fluffed it whereas with snow conditions, you are generally blissfully unaware.

Soemtimes you are aware of just how lucky you've been. Two mates of mine- cautious, expereienced family men - had a snow layer whumph under them on a tour. I was curious when they got back and told me* about it: after you've changed your underpants, wtf is the next thing you do?

* but not their wives. I was/am sworn to secrecy
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:30:39 pm by Muenchener »

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#19 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 01:24:08 pm
I have phone footage of a friend crosscutting (or is it called ski cutting?)a gully in the Cairngorms and the top foot or so of snow going. Could have been nasty as it's narrow and twisting. I've been sworn to never share it.

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#20 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 01:30:33 pm
I thought he came across as a bit of a tit in Grimer's podcast tbh. A life of living in a climbing vacuum perhaps and/or me becoming a grumpy old git? Anyhoos, the consequences of what he does if he messes up are so black and white, compared to e.g. riding a motorbike really fast, that I can't help but find his 'tude a bit arrogant. Let's face it, a lot of the soloists and big risk takers around climbing are no longer with us. And him not falling to his death soloing is not proof that it's 'safe'. All that said, his ability to switch off fear to the extent where he can do what he does is quite simply amazing. And I suspect that's it. Who is going to give up a gift like that?

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#21 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 01:37:58 pm
I haven't listened to the podcast yet as I wanted to finish the book* first. What's interesting about the book is it's made pretty clear when other people have found him a bit of a tit, not one of those sanitised (auto)bios we've seen in recent years.

*I should point out to anyone who hasn't read it, the Honnold book is written as part autobiography and part biography, alternating sections written by Honnold and the other guy (who as it turns out did some big ascents back in the day with Galen Rowell - props!).

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#22 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 09:28:45 pm

Yikes.

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#23 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 09, 2016, 10:16:40 pm
Really good of the cameraman to show off so many different areas of the crag. Fairhead looks great.

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#24 Re: Alex Honnold and The Dark Side
June 10, 2016, 08:58:18 am
Alex Honnold and The Dark Side  and Alex Honnold and the Complete Scream could be great names for a series of children's books.



 

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