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All Day Performance Trad Shoes - Smearing & Cracks (Read 15728 times)

Fultonius

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Ok folks, my never ending quest for the holy grail of climbing shoes continues.

The Back Story

Scarpa works. It's like they have built their last around my foot. La Sportiva doesn't, although, full disclosure, I've never made it to the till with a pair, so maybe they work in the real world?

For years I've used Vapour Velcros for multi-pitch trad, then I discovered broken in Boostics - IMO unrivalled for comfort and edging performance. On the likes of the brandler hasse, ISO 2000, gogarth, cromlech etc. they are just ideal.

Last week however, I found some limitations - namely, smearing and pure crack work. I'm not light (76kg) and don't have small feet (43/43.5 scarpa) so I generally rely a bit on the shoes for support on edgy trad. Recently I've been thinking that maybe for indoors and bouldering I should embrace something softer to train my feet?

I did a few warm up routes in my baggy (44) vapour velcros that I bought for Yomesite a few years back and have sat in the cupboard since. They were very good in the cracks, but anything resembling an edge was quite worrisome, so on the harder routes I resorted to the boostics. Some routes were great (face climbs) others a bit challenging (smears & cracks). I would find it more insecure when just trying to chill out on bigger sloping footholds as I had to keep a lot of pressure to ensure grip. On similar holds with the big baggy shoes I could just stand there.

The Quest

I'm off to the U.S. in September, planning on 10+ pitch 5.11s and above. Therefore lots of granite cracks - the Boostics will not suffice, and I fear the vapours are just not right (too baggy, and yet still not that comfy). I also want them for when I know a route is more smeary than edgey in the UK.

I'm thinking snug but not small Katana Lace (if I can get it to fit), or similar Instinct Lace. I really don't get on with 5.10 shape, but could try something if recommended. I think people have previously mentioned anasazi verdes, what's the replacement now?


« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 02:36:51 pm by Fultonius »

Duncan campbell

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Those flat-soled Scarpa shoes?? Pretty garish colours and called something a long the lines of techno x. could be the ticket?

I reckon the new 5.10 pinks are pretty good for what you describe though if they dont fit, maybe not. they are nowhere near as aggressive as whites and are therefore pretty comfortable in cracks but are technical enough to edge and smear.

ashtond6

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5.10 pinks for me - but like you say, its all about foot shape.

Fultonius

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Those flat-soled Scarpa shoes?? Pretty garish colours and called something a long the lines of techno x. could be the ticket?

I reckon the new 5.10 pinks are pretty good for what you describe though if they dont fit, maybe not. they are nowhere near as aggressive as whites and are therefore pretty comfortable in cracks but are technical enough to edge and smear.

Haven't tried on the pinks yet, so I could give them a bash.

I'm always a bit unsure of a fully flat shoe like the Techno, as they often seem to be stiffer/less precise to provide support. Anyone tried them?

I know the "crack masters" rave about 5.10 moccs, but I'm not so sure for multi-pitch granite. (I'm sure they're great for Indian Creek etc.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 03:53:57 pm by Fultonius »

tommytwotone

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I've done the hardest grade I've done across all disciplines (boulder, sport and trad) in a pair of 5:10 Velcros, including offwidthing.


Obviously heavily dependant on foot shape but my go-to-shoe whenever I need an all-rounder.

ghisino

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Moccs are great for cracks and smears but not very good and quite tiring on granite crystals and edges. Ok as a comfy allrounder on easy stuff

Pinks: yes they should work really well...

I'd also look at lasportiva: Tc pros, katana laces and otaki...

Fultonius

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Moccs are great for cracks and smears but not very good and quite tiring on granite crystals and edges. Ok as a comfy allrounder on easy stuff

Pinks: yes they should work really well...

I'd also look at lasportiva: Tc pros, katana laces and otaki...

I spent a while trying to see if a TC pro would fit in Snell...never felt right.  Just been in the shop and tried some pinks on in a 43, seems like a good, if slightly narrow, fit. I reckon they could be winners...  How much do they stretch?

jwi

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I used to wear 5.10 anasazi green for granite trad. Are they still around? I've used 5.10 verdon for multipitch limestone and since they have quite narrow toebox I wouldn't hesitate to bring the for multipitch granite.

fried

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Pinks go from stiff, to perfect to carpet slippers very quickly. I have a pair of size 8s for bouldering and a pair of 8.5 that have been resoled for bimbling about in, I take a size 10 street size, when nicely broken in the are perfect for smearing and pretty decent on small edges. I bought a pair of vapours as I wanted something a bit more aggresive on small holds, despite the evidence that they stay on fine, my mind doesn't like the feel of them and I end up back in my pinks.

I can comfortably keep my small pinks on for a couple of hours before the pain becomes unbearable, although I have very narrow feet.

Apparently Vieux campeur is not going to stock the Verdons due to their ridiculously high price, I'd still like a go on them though.


Fultonius

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Pinks go from stiff, to perfect to carpet slippers very quickly.

Hmm.  :-\ This is why I binned 5.10 in the first place - blancos only lasting a month before they were useless. I do want them for crack and smear though, not edging.

I felt like the new Vapour Velcros were slightly more down-turned and aggressive than the original, but it's hard to tell.

AndyR

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Just been through the same process - ended up with a pair of the Vapour lace-ups - took them out for a day on Sunday and they handled thin granite edging and finger/thin hands with ease - outrageously comfy too compared to my previous whites/Anasazi velcros. Recommended.

Fultonius

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Andy - were those V2s or V1?

V2:



I'm continually impressed with how well Scarpa hold their shape and stiffness with age, in fact, breaking them in can be tedious!

ashtond6

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Pinks go from stiff, to perfect to carpet slippers very quickly.

Hmm.  :-\ This is why I binned 5.10 in the first place - blancos only lasting a month before they were useless. I do want them for crack and smear though, not edging.

I felt like the new Vapour Velcros were slightly more down-turned and aggressive than the original, but it's hard to tell.

But the carpet slippers time is great for cracks. Stiffer than moccs but still great to twist in, but still ok ish on edging.

I totally agree with fried though, for edging pinks have an extremely short life span

Don't touch moccs for multipitch, agony after a while

ashtond6

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Also, I don't understand the point in anyone recommending an edging shoe for cracks. Unless you are rich

The cracks will destroy the edge pretty quickly

TheTwig

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Love my 5.10 velcros for all things trad. Some people seem to think the metal buckle holding the velcro digs into your foot when jamming your foot in but I honestly have never ever had that problem  :shrug:

AndyR

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Andy - were those V2s or V1?

V2:


V2 - the most recent version.

mikester

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Andy - were those V2s or V1?

V2:


V2 - the most recent version.
Sound good. How are you sizing them?

AndyR

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Andy - were those V2s or V1?

V2:


V2 - the most recent version.
Sound good. How are you sizing them?

For ref: I'm a 42/43 street shoe. Tend to run either 41.5 or 42 in blanco or anasazi velcro; I ended up getting 41.5 in the vapour lace and that felt comfortable, whereas same size in blanco has me wincing.

ghisino

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Also, I don't understand the point in anyone recommending an edging shoe for cracks.

i understood the point perfectly while climbing the enduro corner on astroman in moccs...
many reasonable stemming stances turned into painful and shaky experiences because the shoes were too sloppy to push comfortably on small edges and crystals.

in my limited experience,sloppy shoes and especially moccs are killers when the crack is the main feature and/or everything else is rounded, big or very smeary...sadly it isn't the case for most granite!

Fultonius

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Also, I don't understand the point in anyone recommending an edging shoe for cracks.

i understood the point perfectly while climbing the enduro corner on astroman in moccs...
many reasonable stemming stances turned into painful and shaky experiences because the shoes were too sloppy to push comfortably on small edges and crystals.

in my limited experience,sloppy shoes and especially moccs are killers when the crack is the main feature and/or everything else is rounded, big or very smeary...sadly it isn't the case for most granite!

This ^^  has been an issue for me in the past. I have weak feet, so often get mega pumped calves and have to hold on much harder because my feet are slopping/rolling around.

Total dilemma!  Might buy some pinks and see how it goes, but take my broken in, resoled boostics as a backup.

tomtom

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TobyD

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I've done the hardest grade I've done across all disciplines (boulder, sport and trad) in a pair of 5:10 Velcros, including offwidthing.
Obviously heavily dependant on foot shape but my go-to-shoe whenever I need an all-rounder.

I'd agree: you can climb anything in velcros, the only thing they don't do well is small pockets. I also used to love the 5.10 Galileos, but in 5.10s infinite wisdom utter stupidity they stopped making them. Comfy - fit velcros are almost as good.

rosmat

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IMO - and I live in Yosemite - nothing comes even close to TC Pros for granite cracks and faces.

I have narrow feet and once broken in the fit is great. They feel a little weird until broken in.

For reference fit wise, my other shoes I wear regularly are:
1.) Vapor Velcro (too aggressive for cracks to be comfy)
2.) 5.10 Moccasyms (good for thin cracks, too soft for hand / fist cracks, shit for edging).
3.) 5.10 Anasazi Velcro (pretty good but too soft to be comfy on long multi pitch cracks).

I would definitely go with TC Pros if you can. It took me while to get used to them, but now I love them and wouldn't choose anything else for the granite.

Fultonius

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IMO - and I live in Yosemite - nothing comes even close to TC Pros for granite cracks and faces.

I have narrow feet and once broken in the fit is great. They feel a little weird until broken in.

For reference fit wise, my other shoes I wear regularly are:
1.) Vapor Velcro (too aggressive for cracks to be comfy)
2.) 5.10 Moccasyms (good for thin cracks, too soft for hand / fist cracks, shit for edging).
3.) 5.10 Anasazi Velcro (pretty good but too soft to be comfy on long multi pitch cracks).

I would definitely go with TC Pros if you can. It took me while to get used to them, but now I love them and wouldn't choose anything else for the granite.

I would consider it, but I think they might just be too specialist - I also want this shoe purchase to suit me for general UK trad duties when I want something less edgey and more smeary than boostics/vapour velcros - that's why Anasazi Pinks sound reasonable. As far as I've read the TC pros are pretty poor for smears? I read a few reviews saying the pinks were pretty nice for cracks.

shark

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http://englishmaninsquamish.blogspot.co.uk/

Quote
In particular I became obsessed with finding the correct shoes for Freeway (and sent stern emails to Simon suggesting he think likewise). Whilst I hate painful feet from over-tight shoes worn on long routes, the “calf-burning stems on micro features” seemed to require a precision shoe. My usual shoe choice for easier long routes is a baggy pair of old-school La Sportiva Mythos, and for harder single-pitch trad the same firm’s Miuras, sized as tight as I can bear. Neither seemed right for Freeway.

My first experiment was to buy some Miuras one half-size larger than usual. They were - initially - disappointing. I did a lap up Grand Wall in them, with Eric Hildrew, another Brit visitor, in town a few weeks before Simon and his family. The Miuras hurt, yet didn’t feel very precise. In a panic, I made a very left-field choice: a pair of Mythos, sized tighter than usual, and, for extra impact, in the women’s style which is significantly narrower. For a while I managed to delude myself that these were good shoes, and even took them for (another) lap up Grand Wall, with Simon and his son Tom. But a couple of obvious negatives were hard to ignore: one, that they were scarcely less sloppy than my normal Mythos, and, worse, two, that my feet were tending to pop out of the shoes’ shallow heel cups.

Eventually, in search of objectivity, I carried a bouldering pad and my entire shoe collection to a slab near my home, notable for some thin problems. In particular there is a sandbag V2 which starts with two consecutive rock-ups on small crystals, on which I often fail. The only reliable shoe I own for moves like that is the Five Ten Anasazi White, a stiff “plank” too foot-crushing to wear for any significant time. Predictably the problem wouldn’t go in Mythos of any flavour, nor in any of the other oddities I have accumulated down the years (Five Ten 5X’s, Red Chilli Spirits … czech carpet slippers … etc). However the aha! moment came when I did manage the two crystal moves in the new upsized Miura's, even though they felt awkward and clunky. I decided to stop fussing and just concentrate on getting those shoes thoroughly broken-in.


Fultonius

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Thanks shark. That's funny, as Freeway was the end of the affair when it came to Anasazi whites. On the fourth pitch, when you have thin tips laybacking and smeary feet, I had to reverse all the way to the belay, remove my shoes, chalk up my sweaty feet, crank them as hard as I could then go back up.

My feet were just slopping and rolling inside the shoe and I was convinced I was going to blow it. In hindsight, I probably wore whites half a size too big, but could never get into the smaller size.


lagerstarfish

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I used my comfy fit (half size below street, I think? almost straight big toe) lace up Miuras in Font at Easter and was pleasantly surprized by how good they were on smears - obviously they are great on edges. I had some surprizing support from them using smear/edge/paste type placements on blank looking walls - they found little variations in the texture

I've climbed cracks in them, but not leading (staying still for long periods of time). Seem OK, the pointy toe is good on peg scars both front on and sideways (recent top rope of peg scarred cracks)

there is a reasonable amount of adjustment using the laces which makes a difference to how bendy the shoe feels

Johnny Brown

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In my experience there is no such thing as an all-day performance shoe. The more of one you go for, the less you get of the other. Worth noting foot pain on long routes is not just from boot tightness (which also gives support) but from the strain standing on your toes (which develops quicker in boots with less support.

So for Uk style 2-3 pitch, 2-3 routes a day, the best compromise I've found is to use my most broken-in pair of tight performance shoes - Anasazi velcros that have already done a bouldering season generally, but on slate I had a very good day in a pair of 5.10 Arrowheads which are the softest, tightest shoes I've ever had. Obviously you take them off immediately between pitches. All the times I've onsighted E6 and above have involved this approach. I find I climb better and quicker in really good shoes, which helps overall on long routes.. up to a point.

For really long routes I think you need something a) stiff and b) lace-up. Ideally well broken in, hopefully taking the edges off and giving a bit more sensitivity whilst retaining the stiffness. Lace-up so you have good control over tightness, and can tighten for hard pitches and loosen for easier (but still get support from the stiffness). Some pain is inevitable after 20+ pitches.

E.g. Bransby did Freerider in a day in well-worn 5.10 Newtons, which were marketed as a punter boot, whereas Lynn Hill did the Nose in a day in tight Boreal bambas, one of the softest shoes ever marketed. No doubt they were pretty tight. An alternative is to climb any easier ground in your best approach shoes and go for the soft shoes for the hard pitches, this works better on some routes/ rock than others.

Generally I annoy myself by not adopting the second approach and end up in a hybrid too big-too soft boot (mainly due to the time taken to break stiff shoes). In Canada I had a pair of greens half a size bigger than tight which were quite good (good enough for Freeway, Power of Lard, Fingerberry jam etc, but agony by the end of Seventh Rifle - too tight, too soft), have just bought a pair of pinks the same size which are rubbish - too soft out of the box and too narrow for me - crap on small holds and very painful across the wide part of the foot. Maybe I should probably buy second hand stiff boots off ebay punters.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 11:37:25 am by Johnny Brown »

Fultonius

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#minefield

Fuck it, I might just go in my resoled boostics. I've done plenty 400m+ routes in them, plenty of support, good on edges, dishes etc., a bit "awkward" in cracks, but manageable. I didn't even have sore feet after doing Don Quixote on the Marmoloda, which has a lot of slabbier sections.

Putting me off the pinks...

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JB has said most of this as I was writing but here it is anyway.

I don't think there is one shoe that does everything you want, with the caveat that I've not climbed much in TC Pros.

The executive summary is the best compromise is a 1990s performance shoe that fits your foot - medium-stiff, with little or no down-turn - sized 1/2 up from tight so that your toes lie flat. Their biggest weakness will be in pure thin cracks which need soft shoes with low profile toes (Moccs or comfortably fitting Mythos). These are rubbish on edges of course. In anything other than desert sandstone it's worth sacrificing ability to squeeze into thin cracks for a little more edging in my view. Anything moderately stiff works in pure hand or fist cracks, even approach shoes are pretty good.

All-round shoes that have worked well for me include old-style Pinks, Velcros, Galileos, or softened Blancos, all sized 1/2 up from tight. Miuras are good but not my foot shape. This has put me off trying TC Pros which I believe are based on the Miura last; I tried a pair briefly and they felt almost as stiff as Blancos but even less sensitive. I could imagine they could be good for micro-edges and handcracks but not so good for smearing or thin cracks. I didn't get on with Mythos' for anything other than cracks.

Johnny Brown

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I have wide feet and always avoided the old pinks on this basis. However I was sold the new ones on the basis that they were basically a replacement for the greens. They are very soft so need to be tight to work.

I wouldn't be too put off by a lack of sensitivity in stiff shoes. It's inevitable. What they do need is breaking in well, so not best bought specifically for a trip. Breaking partly involves the shoe deforming to your foot, and partly you learning to use them - with stiff boots the latter is crucial.

Tommy

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Me and Pete climbed the El Cap routes in a mixture of Anasazi Velcro and Blancos.

Velcro 1 = soft and very old. 5.8-5.11
Velcro 2 = a month old. 5.12/13 cracks
Blanco = 3-6 months old. 5.12/13 face pitches.

I've found the pain in the arse of switching shoes and carrying extra ones well worth it and also good if you have horrible sweaty feet! :-). Also I use the Stealth rubber paint on the toes for the hard crack pitches. It's really good once you learn how to do the paint job well. I did a few duff jobs to start though!!


Johnny Brown

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How many pitches were you doing in a day Tom? Assuming you were hauling/ camping too?

Fultonius

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We'lll not be taking spare shoes, or doing 5.12+  haha! 

My biggest concern is thin crack/corner work - if there are edges I'd be fine in boostics, but it it's friction stemming they'd be too stiff and downturned, and also usless for when you just smear/paste your foot into the crack/corner.

in all honesty I'll be fine on the routes we're planning, as they are not likely to be right at my limit for a couple of reasons, but I just want to enjoy it as much as I can.

Tommy

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How many pitches were you doing in a day Tom? Assuming you were hauling/ camping too?

5-15 at a guess? 15 on easy stuff, 5 if it was middle of wall and trying the 13s. We generally hauled in trainers.

Johnny Brown

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Ok, so I forget which routes you did but assume then you'd be wearing the soft old velcros for something like the freeblast?

Tommy

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Yeah it was something like the below on Freerider:

Softies for Freeblast (but new Velcro for sandbag 6b+ pitch)
Softies all the way to Monster
Whites for Monster (better heel-toe stiffness)
Softies to boulder prob pitch
Whites
New velcro next 4-5 pitches? Mostly 5.12 ish
Softies to top. (actually might have been new Velcro on Scotty Burke pitch)

ashtond6

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Also, I don't understand the point in anyone recommending an edging shoe for cracks.

i understood the point perfectly while climbing the enduro corner on astroman in moccs...
many reasonable stemming stances turned into painful and shaky experiences because the shoes were too sloppy to push comfortably on small edges and crystals.

in my limited experience,sloppy shoes and especially moccs are killers when the crack is the main feature and/or everything else is rounded, big or very smeary...sadly it isn't the case for most granite!

Did you read my entire post?
The bit where I said 'don't use moccs!'
 :tease:

Muenchener

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For some reason even well-broken-in and half-size-bigger-than-tight Miura's no longer work for me

Been there, done that. Great performance but lacking on the comfy.

Am currently on Vapor Laces half a size down from street shoe size. Pretty good, would buy again, might go a full size down next time.

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I've just done some zooming on my holiday pics (which has made me question my current employed status) and it seems like the shoe of choice for my USA tour (which was a mix of sandstone and granite) was the green Anasazi. Nat seems to have worn a combination of Whites and Vapour V (women's).

I can remember these (the greens) dying just before I arrived in Squamish and I broke out some Whites I hadn't yet used. After a couple of routes (easy ones at that) I decided that either I'd sized them completely wrong for what I was doing (possible, as they'd be a pair sized for UK lime) or that I just didn't like them on granite (perhaps JB's point about breaking them in beforehand is valid here!). I ended up buying a pair of the purple Anasazi velcros (i.e. the ones with C4) which I wore from then on but as stated I did find the bottom buckle to press into my foot at times.

I can also remember taking a new pair of Velcros to the Verdon and seriously regretting it. I prefer a V2 White that's broken-in as I spend ages pontificating my next move and don't want to be rushed into committing by aching feet.

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Anyone tried the new Maestro https://www.scarpa.co.uk/climb/maestro/ look like they could be a good compromise shoe (or are trying to be).
Generally wear anasazi velcros (a bit soft for all day) and used to really like the, now discontinued and imo underappreciated Evolv Bandit velcros, which I thought were a bit stiffer, pointier toe for edges and with a slightly less agressive heel. Unfortunately my last pair are about to die.

 

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