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Moonboard - climbing by numbers or rather LED lights (Read 81602 times)

dave

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Cheers Gav will check them out. Had totally missed the whole benchmark thing.

highrepute

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Most of the benchmarks are good so its a good start to work your way through them. All pretty stern grades.

My understanding was that these are problems Ben has done and liked. Do you know if this is correct Gav?

I'd say very stern grades.

gme

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The benchmarks are allocated by 4 or 5 people from all over the world who are either involved with the board/moonclimbing or early adopters of the board who ben asked to comment. Not sure exactly what the criteria is.

They are all generally proper grades in line with the older stuff. i.e. hard. Its also worth looking at the user grade and comments to see what people think. Quite interesting to see one mans 7C is another 7A and noticeable its rarely the other way round. Over 20000 people have downloaded the app now which is amazing. If everyone who did a problem put the grade they actually think it is down when they have completed it the user grade in brackets should be pretty accurate.

If you want an ego trip put your settings on the grade you want to do, list by most ascents and ignore the user grade. Low and behold you will be flashing 7Bs before you know it.

dave

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If you want an ego trip put your settings on the grade you want to do, list by most ascents and ignore the user grade. Low and behold you will be flashing 7Bs before you know it.

I did this first few sessions cos I thought it'd end up showing the best quality problems. Did 4 7cs either flashed or a couple of goes, and flashed a 7c+. Even still on plenty of these the "user grade" was still same as the given grade. Take the ego boost and run I say.

gme

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Yopu know your only kidding yourself.

And since when has quantity ever confirmed quality. Thats why Rubicon roof is the most popular route on peak limestone.

Sasquatch

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The benchmarks are a joke.  Some of them are quite good, some are not very good.  Some are massive sandbags, some are seemingly soft.  I think it would be better if there was an algorithm to calculate based on star rating and grade accuracy rather than 1(or 5) persons opinion, even if it is Ben. 

This is not only my opinion, but consensus amongst everyone here locally. 

FYI - i've done almost all of the benchmarks, but anyway who thinks problem 23 is even close to 7C has steel tendons and can't grade for shit...




Sasquatch

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Word up folks, been having a few moonboard sessions of late, anyone got any recommendations for good problems generally in the 7b+ to 8a range? Ideally not just ones which are huge jumps between massive holds.

Nectar of the Todds
Gastonification
Leocremaflanders
Black Cats
Kawaschuwu
Sensei
piccole righe

dave

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The benchmarks are a joke.  Some of them are quite good, some are not very good.  Some are massive sandbags, some are seemingly soft.

Had a look at some of the alleged benchmarks last night, and the above seems to ring true. Grades and quality all over the place. Also seem to be overrepresented in the "huge jumps between massive holds" style too.

Still, found a few decent ones to try. Soulmoves South 2016 - very odd 6inch first move? Have I missed something. Blow - seemed like pulling off the ground for the first move is twice as hard as any other move on it?

Nectar of the Todds
Gastonification
Leocremaflanders
Black Cats
Kawaschuwu
Sensei
piccole righe


Will check them out, cheers.

gme

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The benchmarks are a joke.  Some of them are quite good, some are not very good.  Some are massive sandbags, some are seemingly soft.  I think it would be better if there was an algorithm to calculate based on star rating and grade accuracy rather than 1(or 5) persons opinion, even if it is Ben. 

This is not only my opinion, but consensus amongst everyone here locally. 

FYI - i've done almost all of the benchmarks, but anyway who thinks problem 23 is even close to 7C has steel tendons and can't grade for shit...

This is exactly what the user grade does. Its calculated on a formula once more than a certain number of people have logged a user grade. This seems to make things worse as i am yet to see an upgrade but lots and lots of downgrades often taking problems from hugely over graded to hugely under graded. I believe the star system is supposed to work this way as well.

I have suggested that the main grade should change to the average logged user grade with the original grade dropping into brackets then this would allow the filters to work better.

Re problem 23 i think its desperate but the lad i climb with did it in a few tries and thought it was steady for 7C. Here lies the problem with grades.

dave

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The way forward would be to programme the app to know the exact size and shape of each hold, the angle of the board, then given the height and ape index of the climber the app should actually be able to calculate the grade for any given climbable combination of holds via a statistical algorithm. P.S> this is now my idea so if Ben does actually do this I want a cut.

gme

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Thats v3 out next year.

We wont have anything to moan or bitch about then other than politics. Life will grind to a halt.

Muenchener

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Soulmoves South 2016 - very odd 6inch first move?

Maybe in order to make the second hold "available" as a foothold for later on, given the strict Feet Follow Hands rule.

Sasquatch

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The benchmarks are a joke.  Some of them are quite good, some are not very good.  Some are massive sandbags, some are seemingly soft.  I think it would be better if there was an algorithm to calculate based on star rating and grade accuracy rather than 1(or 5) persons opinion, even if it is Ben. 

This is not only my opinion, but consensus amongst everyone here locally. 

FYI - i've done almost all of the benchmarks, but anyway who thinks problem 23 is even close to 7C has steel tendons and can't grade for shit...

This is exactly what the user grade does. Its calculated on a formula once more than a certain number of people have logged a user grade. This seems to make things worse as i am yet to see an upgrade but lots and lots of downgrades often taking problems from hugely over graded to hugely under graded. I believe the star system is supposed to work this way as well.

I have suggested that the main grade should change to the average logged user grade with the original grade dropping into brackets then this would allow the filters to work better.

Re problem 23 i think its desperate but the lad i climb with did it in a few tries and thought it was steady for 7C. Here lies the problem with grades.

You're right that the user grades only work one direction, down.  I also haven't seen an upgrade yet, even though I've personally upgraded many problems.  I just meant that instead of the user grade which is an "average", use an algorithm that assesses "benchmark" status by highest level of user to actual agreement.  That plus some star method should end up working out.   

There is a second issue that has come up as well, and that is hold/wall differential.  My friend Chad visited the school room and played on the board there.  He thought the yellow(original) set there had far more friction than the sets we have which are slick as snot.  That could make a big difference.  And on the yellow holds, hand size seems to make a big difference as many of them are 3 fingers only for me, but another strong friend can squeeze four on many of them. 

regardless, I htink overall it's a pretty cool setup.

Sasquatch

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The benchmarks are a joke.  Some of them are quite good, some are not very good.  Some are massive sandbags, some are seemingly soft.

Had a look at some of the alleged benchmarks last night, and the above seems to ring true. Grades and quality all over the place. Also seem to be overrepresented in the "huge jumps between massive holds" style too.

Still, found a few decent ones to try. Soulmoves South 2016 - very odd 6inch first move? Have I missed something. Blow - seemed like pulling off the ground for the first move is twice as hard as any other move on it?

Nectar of the Todds
Gastonification
Leocremaflanders
Black Cats
Kawaschuwu
Sensei
piccole righe


Will check them out, cheers.

I've done all but the kawaschuwu one, but i've done all the moves on that one.  I just can't keep it together for the second to last move.

Soulmoves South was a funny one. Seemed easy to me, but I still can't finish blow.  The last move gets me every time. 

Duma

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Sensei is very good, thought it was fairish at 7C

tommytwotone

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So off the back of a Moonboard's appearance in Leeds - now in a position to comment on this.

On the board / problems, agree on the holds - they're pretty rough, can see how they'd rag your skin. In my case this isn't a problem as I'm not fit enough to manage a sustained period of time on the thing.

Agree with comments on the problems, even at the lower end there seems to be a lot of throw-y, high-foot-and-low-percentage-pop type problems on there. Personally I seem to find the move off the kickboard on loads of the problems ridiculously stretched, to the point where I'm having to jump the move and stick my feet back on.

On the topic of setting / grading...not convinced on the crowd sourced nature of the problem base. It's all very well saying there's 10k or whatever problems, but if there is a lot of sandbag dross out there to wheedle out it's a bit of a false economy for the Moonboard user. Would I prefer a smaller number of (probably) better set and consistently graded problems by people who know what they're doing? Yes I would. Potentially a paid-for upgrade I guess (copyright tommytwotone industries).

Also, the app's been updated - a few observations. Can't recall, but aren't there some UKB-ers involved in the development of this?):

Firstly - there's apparently a 25 degree option. That seems unusual for something where the idea is total standardisation across the world. I didn't see it on my last visit - is the commercially available Moonboard adjustable? Or is this a clever ruse to get wall owners etc to erect a second, less steep version?!

Secondly - I (personally - perhaps as it's my field of professional expertise) am still finding the user experience (via Android at least) a bit ropey.

In particular:

a) Filtering / sorting of problems - surely the sort should be on your filtered list, not part of the search?
b) On Android, if you look at a problem off your filtered down list and don't like the look of it, if you hit the back button it takes you back to the homepage, not back to your filtered down list!
c) Some kind of "problems starting with / including this hold" would be good - I was trying a problem put on by someone else yesterday that was apparently 6c, got close but don't know the name of it and not I'm damned if I can find it in amongst the numerous 6cs!

Also, bit of a random one but am I right that only one phone can be hooked up to the board at a time? I got there yesterday when there was another team in situ, they were fine me joining in but I felt a bit weird about using some total stranger's phone to browse problems and control the board lights.

dunnyg

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Problem 4:

My phone is too shit to run the app so I am at the mercy of whoever else is there.

A book of problems would be good too but maybe that defeats the point?

andy_e

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What it needs is a holographic projection of Ben Moon telling you what's in and dishing out abuse to help you climb better.

Duma

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ttt/dunnyg, no use to you but TCA has a tablet dedicated for the moonboard so you don't need a phone, tho you can use your phone if you want.

I believe the new pink and wood holds are about to/have been released - anyone had a go with these?

didn't know about the 25 degree option - surely all the holds are way too good for this angle?

remus

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I believe the new pink and wood holds are about to/have been released - anyone had a go with these?

didn't know about the 25 degree option - surely all the holds are way too good for this angle?

I've had a play on the new holds on the school board. Definitely a fan of the wooden holds, nice open shapes with a little more friction than normal wood holds (because they're in plywood). Ambivalent on the new pink holds.

The board in the schoolroom is adjustable, so Id guess they were thinking about adjustable boards when it was designed? If they were feeling clever I guess you could come up with a formula that says "add 10 degrees, add a grade" or something, though i guess it'd always be a bit of a stab in the dark as hold type is gonna make a big difference.

moose

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/I am a bit late to the party here but had my first Moonboard session today (inadvertant - the Depot was shut due to a power outage). The single-session verdict: ambivalent. 

The positives are that for a solo boulderer, having a massive library of problems to try is great fun.  I did a lot of good, steep climbing, without having to waste much mental energy or time.  The quality of the problems was pretty mixed, but not having to think for myself made for a very "efficient" session.  That said, I had the board to myself.

The negatives: the holds were pretty grim (Original, A, and B: white, black and yellow); all resin, mainly nasty. As the problems are feet-follows-hands, the holds were both unpleasantly rough and slickly rubbery.  And, the crux of many problems was getting a foot from the kickboard onto a starting handhold, which felt a bit limited.  I far prefer boards with dedicated crap screw-ins for feet: the hand-holds stay clean and there are equivalent terrible options for all heights, and the problems do not feel so morpho.

To my mind, as a piece of "hardware", the Moonboard is pretty poor: any equivalently wide bit of the Leeds Depot 30 is far better: nicer holds and lots of awful, slopey screw-ins for feet.  Frankly, in the absence of a problem library, I would prefer my own tiny, 5' wide woodie to a Moonboard, despite being designed by an idiot (me, albeit, very well constructed by Probes), I would gravitate to the near entirely wood holds set (mainly Crusher and LX / Hard-Wood-Holds) with lots of crappy feet.

But, the app compensates for so much of the structural failings of the Moonboard. I will retain the app and I have made a bookmarked list of problems from this forum for future visits.  I am keen for similarly deserted spells on the board in the future (I have Reynaulds, so "peak conditions" days, when everyone with normal circulation is out on the grit!).  However, if on future visits, the Moonboard was crowded and I could not get on the app, I am not sure I would be prepared to wait. For me, access to the app would likely be  necessary to compensate for the basic failings of the  board.

Luke Owens

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I agree Moose, I used to climb on a board in my old local wall which has recently closed down. It had lots of wooden and smoother holds and screw-ons as extra options, it was great, I really preferred that. I quite like some of the yellow holds on the Moonboard though.

I think Moon has addressed some of the issues with the Masters set-up as the wooden holds look nice, not sure what the red ones are like and I'm pretty sure there are now screw-ons for feet. Have many here used this set-up yet? I don't see my local wall updating to this set up any time soon though.

It is slightly frustrating that some of the cruxes are high feet off the kicker but the more I've used it the more I've got into it, thankfully the board addresses a lot of my weaknesses of big moves on big holds, pinches in general and getting and moving off high feet.


As an aside I've noticed the yellow footholds on the kicker have always been positive edge side up at my local wall and only just last week they've switched them to the slopey side? Which is correct? Can't find any info on the Moon site only that the new Masters set up should be slopey side up.

Cheers

« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:29:19 am by Luke Owens »

Muenchener

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The rule was definitely always slopy side up - I checked a while ago because one of my two local moonboards had them the wrong way. Didn't notice that it made much difference.

Luke Owens

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Cheers, had another session on the Moonboard last night and the kicker footholds being slopey didn't seem to make much difference as you say.

Had my best session yet and managed a 7A (YYFY) but it was probably massively soft, came close (last move) on another 2 as well.

I've never tried any of the set problems using the yellows until yesterday and they seem to suit me way more being fingery but positive. Generally not massive moves on the problems I tried that use them too.

Does anyone here have any recommendations of good problems around the 7A mark that aren't complete sandbags/soft? I found myself flicking through the app for ages yesterday trying to find problems to commit to that looked good.

Cheers

monkoffunk

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Have you tried Ben Moon's Hard Times? One of the more popular ones. I haven't done it but had a session where I did the moves and thought it would go quite easily before being completely shut down on the link. Others have since told me that it's supposed to be quite hard.

 

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