[seankenny]

I found this a good, personal and very sad story of what’s happening in the UK. Maybe it’s nothing new, but so what? There’s nothing new because the morons running this shit show have simply no idea how to proceed. In the meantime, a slow draining of talent and hope, all in return for the ability to decide that our regulations on vacuum cleaners will be... exactly the same as the EU’s!

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/aug/02/auf-wedersehen-britain-brexit-forcing-my-german-family-leave-home?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, and I suppose I shouldn’t mention it yet, but I’m about 75% certain that I shall be buggering off to a sunnier clime and returning to Engineering, this Autumn.
Entirely possible that it might all fall through, or take longer than hoped, but they approached me so...

But (and this is the main reason for saying this), I can.

What about all those who can’t just up and go. What ever happens, if it goes ahead, this country will be poorer for it and people will suffer for a pointless pile of day dreams.

(Sorry Pete) Even the Brexiteer kings and queens conceded that would be the case (even the most deluded, has switched from “10 years of struggle” to “50 years and we might see some benefit”, without actually stating what benefit he’s thinking of).

Meanwhile, the experts continue to hammer away at the alarm bells, industry heads are lighting the Beacons and calling for aid and that slimy little Gollum Boris is desperately trying to jam a cursed ring on his knob (and act that would, if accomplished, end any hope of this nation ever being taken seriously again).

And...

You know what Pete? For someone who doesn’t care, you do seem keen to read threads, follow links and render opinion.

I mean, there is at least, a Prima Facie case for your lingering empathy for the common person...

 
 

[petejh]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle. I only replied to be mildly facetious to your 'any flaws' comment for a cheap giggle. Beyond that, I'm not interested in engaging with you on UKB about brexit Matt.

[Oldmanmatt]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle. I only replied to be mildly facetious to your 'any flaws' comment for a cheap giggle. Beyond that, I'm not interested in engaging with you on UKB about brexit Matt.

Me?

Who said anything about me?

[Davo]

I thought this was a pretty interesting point of view from Gisela Stuart where she discusses why she changed her mind about the EU and was one of the leaders of the leave campaign. Personally I found it interesting that I could agree with all of her points and arguments and yet come to a different conclusion!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bbr7xd

[danm]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle. I only replied to be mildly facetious to your 'any flaws' comment for a cheap giggle. Beyond that, I'm not interested in engaging with you on UKB about brexit Matt.

You don't get to post and then say "no, no" I don't want to engage. Either be quiet or say what you mean and expect to be challenged (or perhaps agreed with, you never know). Sorry Pete, but you've come across as an arsehole on this.

[tregiffian]

I have always been Pete’s sole supporter. I am cheered by the growing talk, on many sides, even Brussels, of the possibility of a nice clean Brexit next March. This should leave us with an immediate £39bn to mitigate short term problems and the certainty for firms of the well known, widely used WTO structures. I do however worry about the impact of widespread STIs on care homes across our land.         I await the fusillade.

[Will Hunt]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle.

I've got to say, I'm with Pete all the way on this. All I see in Brexit now is people on either side of the argument enjoying whatever evidence they can that they had it right all along.

[Johnny Brown]

Although my belief has been sorely tested over the last 18 months it's becoming pretty clear now that, as I said in the beginning, Brexit will not happen because it is fundamentally unworkable. 40 years of cooperative progress has built the society we live in and cannot be simply undone.

The best analogy I think is the internet. It's been built by an international cooperative effort, but is now unmanageable in many ways and has become pervasive and detrimental in unexpected places. But only an old and very deluded person would think we could turn the national connection off next March because 'we did fine without it in the seventies'.

[Oldmanmatt]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle.

I've got to say, I'm with Pete all the way on this. All I see in Brexit now is people on either side of the argument enjoying whatever evidence they can that they had it right all along.

I don’t know. I can see why it looks like that, but speaking for myself, I’ve actually spent hours (days now) hunting for the up side; looking for an edge, if you like.
I’m exasperated, and it shows. Despite the hyperbole of my posting, I don’t fundamentally believe people like Mogg are idiots or some sort of fifth-column saboteurs, intent on wrecking the country.
But, it doesn’t stack up. Every time I dig into any Leave promise or claim, I find it lacking in foundations (often, also lacking walls, floors or roof and actually being a mere skim of render, in the shape of a house).

So, Personally, I’m preparing to seek income from overseas, whilst desperately hoping I don’t need it.

Honestly, I swear, if I could find a silver lining in this, I’d be raving over it. I haven’t found it yet.

[Will Hunt]

I've not been taking much notice of this thread for a long time, because it's a regular round of the same people saying the same things to each other, round in a circle.

I've got to say, I'm with Pete all the way on this. All I see in Brexit now is people on either side of the argument enjoying whatever evidence they can that they had it right all along.

I don’t know. I can see why it looks like that, but speaking for myself, I’ve actually spent hours (days now) hunting for the up side; looking for an edge, if you like.
I’m exasperated, and it shows. Despite the hyperbole of my posting, I don’t fundamentally believe people like Mogg are idiots or some sort of fifth-column saboteurs, intent on wrecking the country.
But, it doesn’t stack up. Every time I dig into any Leave promise or claim, I find it lacking in foundations (often, also lacking walls, floors or roof and actually being a mere skim of render, in the shape of a house).

So, Personally, I’m preparing to seek income from overseas, whilst desperately hoping I don’t need it.

Honestly, I swear, if I could find a silver lining in this, I’d be raving over it. I haven’t found it yet.

If you're looking at the same evidence as somebody else and coming to a different conclusion, it's probably because you hold different values to your opposite number. To Mogg and co, arguments around national sovereignty (however they choose to define that) and the preservation of traditional values are going to be more compelling than those around maintaining a world leading science and research industry, for instance.

[Teaboy]

If you're looking at the same evidence as somebody else and coming to a different conclusion, it's probably because you hold different values to your opposite number. To Mogg and co, arguments around national sovereignty (however they choose to define that) and the preservation of traditional values are going to be more compelling than those around maintaining a world leading science and research industry, for instance.

That would be acceptable as long as Mogg is being completely honest about his motives. Even if he is being homest he is not sticking to those issues but lying about the impacts Brexit

[danm]

In Moggs case I just think he is a despicable human being. I don't think Brexit supporters are necessarily stupid, deluded or racist - the point you make Will about worldview shaping conclusions is very pertinent. Until a few years ago I did youth work with people from the most deprived parts of Sheffield and Rotherham. I feel this has given me a pretty good insight into some of the reasons Brexit has happened, particularly in the investment starved North.

My biggest fear above and beyond the economic effects of Brexit is that the social problems and inequalities which lead to it, including the discussions we really need to have about immigration but shy away from (particularly on the left) are going to get worse because almost none of them have been addressed and all our energy will now be spent managing with the transition process. We've also totally stuffed our chances of influencing the EU from the inside, which I felt was our best option for shaping our immediate neighbourhood to our liking.

For anyone looking forward to us trading under WTO rules, I admire your optimism. If they are so good, why does every developed country spend so much time arranging free trade deals?

[Oldmanmatt]

But, what are these traditional values and sovereignty stuff they speak of?

By now, you lot probably realise I consume articles and esoteric writtings like some krill harvesting leviathan and recently had a revealing discussion about “Millennials” and “Violent Yoofs” and how they were destroying most of those nebulous things mentioned in the opening sentence.
I was pointed in the direction of some articles about the crime rates in WW2 Britain.

Now, if you have (like me) grown up through the 70’s and 80’s on a diet of Sunday afternoon War films and Remembrance parades; the fact that that “War time spirit” never existed (except as government propaganda) comes as a bit pf a shock.
Teenage gangs, looting and murdering.
Rape and robbery in the public shelters.
The number of executions of servicemen for rape, both Brit and Yank.
Millions of weapons stolen and funneled to the IRA and gangs.

And so on.

So, knowing this, when I hear that jingoistic “Keep calm and carry on”, “Dig for victory” and any other “we had it worse in the war” type shit, I nigh-on crack my teeth from grinding them so hard.

Particularly since the vast majority of those spouting the crap, were too young to know what was happening or not there at all. The hypocrisy of those who actually spent the Sixties stoned out of their tiny gourds, essentially losing an entire decade, before heading off to decimate the education system, government and (basically) the whole fucking planet...
Well.
Twats basically.

(Yes, hyperbole, again, that’s just for my own amusement and a little humour. I’m aware not everyone fits the described twat and that there really were heroes and sacrifices etc etc).

[teestub]

In Moggs case I just think he is a despicable human being.

I don't think this sort of language is useful at all, and is one of the problems with his whole debate. Recognise his motives and ideals are different to yours, and as such he holds different opinions on the subject, but casting people as evil or despicable does nothing to forward the debate.

[Will Hunt]

On the occasions I've heard Rees-Mogg speak I've actually found myself quite impressed by him. Eloquent, articulate, thoughtful. That doesn't mean I agree with him, but I don't think he's evil.

[danm]

In Moggs case I just think he is a despicable human being.

I don't think this sort of language is useful at all, and is one of the problems with his whole debate. Recognise his motives and ideals are different to yours, and as such he holds different opinions on the subject, but casting people as evil or despicable does nothing to forward the debate.

To quote Rick Graham, one of my heroes - "I choose my words with care". If I thought that Mogg's motives were for the best, albeit based on a totally different worldview, fair enough. But there is little evidence of that. What there is evidence of is that he personally stands to gain substantially from Brexit. To be clear, I don't believe in evil, and I don't believe in hating anybody. Contempt? Yes, that I can do, and in this case I think it's fully deserved.

[teestub]

I have not looked into his policy position as (like you) I find him entirely disagreeable, but I had assumed that he would be in favour of lower taxes and deregulation, etc. as in his mind that’s what will drive the country on to glory? (With the almost accidental side effect of healthily lining his pockets of course)

[tregiffian]

When Theresa May retires hurt or is voted down we shall have new hands on the reins and a new direction of travel. Olly will be back on the skatepark.

[Rocksteady]

In Moggs case I just think he is a despicable human being.

I don't think this sort of language is useful at all, and is one of the problems with his whole debate. Recognise his motives and ideals are different to yours, and as such he holds different opinions on the subject, but casting people as evil or despicable does nothing to forward the debate.

The problem is, with some of the high profile 'Leave' campaigners, one highly suspects their motives as being mainly to do with enhancing their own careers and personal power, rather than being based on ideological belief that something is best for the country. For me Boris is the prime example of this but JRM seems to be well in this camp. How do you describe someone who, while claiming to be trying to do the best for all, evidences behaviour that suggests they are very focused on doing the best for themselves and getting as much power as possible? Disingenuous? Dangerous? Despicable?

That's different from the ground level where ordinary people are trying to work out what this all means and taking up positions that reflect their beliefs. Of course it's harmful to debate to simply label someone who disagrees with you as 'evil' or 'stupid' or 'misguided'. Brexit is just showing fracture lines in our society that already existed.

The weird thing is it's different from the historical dichotomy between Cavalier/Roundhead, Anglican/Dissenter, Conservative/Liberal that have perpetuated since the Civil War and largely reflect modern voting preferences (in terms of regions). And that we have kind of internally resolved in the warp and weft of the national identity.

The Brexit split to me seems to be between people who think that Britain has improved over the last c.40 years (at least partly due to engagement in the EU) and is now a better place to live than it used to be, and people who think that it has got worse and needs a shake up.

How you arrive at this conclusion depends on your background, your current situation in life and outlook, and your education. And then put this through the tribal lens of politics. The trouble is it sort of ends up entrenched as a belief and then we end up in a simplified debate where it becomes about what team you support.

Because we've all already voted on this it's hard for us to look at the evidence presented by the other side and take it seriously. Cognitive biases etc. I'm like Matt and can't see any evidence that Brexit will leave us at all better off, but I suspect it's because I've already made up my mind.

I guess I have some sympathy with people who think that Britain is worse than it used to be. There seems to be heightened inequality, mainly with the mega rich getting richer. House prices are ridiculous and past generations seem to have benefited from this leaving younger people stuffed on this front. This makes it seem like the poor are worse off than ever before. The trouble is, I think the evidence generally would tend to show that this isn't true, and actually things could be (and have been) a lot worse. There's a generational divide too, with people who grew up before the EU and people who've never known anything but. Some people feel alienated by the way things are going, with 'political correctness gone mad' - for some people it's normal and anything else would be a sexist, racist backwards step. Some people see the cameras that watch us everywhere as an intrusion inserted unnecessarily into life, some people have never known anything better and presume it keeps us safe. Some people are not comfortable with the internet, other people's working and social lives depend on it entirely.

How we can reconcile all this I don't know. I just want us to reconcile it in a peaceful, grown up, 'British' sort of way, remembering that we haven't had any serious civil violence in our country since the 1700s. Whereas other countries in Europe have had civil wars in the last 30 years.

[Teaboy]

I have not looked into his policy position as (like you) I find him entirely disagreeable, but I had assumed that he would be in favour of lower taxes and deregulation, etc. as in his mind that’s what will drive the country on to glory? (With the almost accidental side effect of healthily lining his pockets of course)

It goes beyond choosing the best path to prosperity for all. His (and most Tories) voting record is one of someone actively denying provision for those most in need even when there is minimal /negligible cost to the rest of us/the economy. Why do that unless you are a massive cunt? Occam's Razor, innit?

[Ru]

I have always been Pete’s sole supporter. I am cheered by the growing talk, on many sides, even Brussels, of the possibility of a nice clean Brexit next March. This should leave us with an immediate £39bn to mitigate short term problems and the certainty for firms of the well known, widely used WTO structures. I do however worry about the impact of widespread STIs on care homes across our land.         I await the fusillade.

I'll bite.

1. There is no 39 billion. It's a promise to pay future instalments funded by future tax receipts.
2. There will be no "widely used WTO structures" after Brexit that the UK can use. It has no agreed WTO membership terms.

When Theresa May retires hurt or is voted down we shall have new hands on the reins and a new direction of travel. Olly will be back on the skatepark.

There is no new direction of travel. David Davis' current best effort is to pay a commercial law firm to try and cobble together a trade offer based on bits of other agreements, Gove has given up and seems to be trying to persuade people behind the scenes to remain in the single market, Johnson's plan is to shout louder and I'm intrigued to know how Rees-Mogg could take up any ministerial position to do with Brexit without being in breach of the ministerial code due to his interest in Somerset Capital. Might be why none of them seem too keen to make a leadership bid or suggest any other tangible options despite TM being in the weakest position of any PM ever.

[tregiffian]

The U.K. has been a member of WTO since 1995. Some minor re-jigging may be needed but we on the inside looking out .
With Parliament in recess a no confidence vote cannot be held. I await September with interest.

[Ru]

We are a member but we have no membership terms because we currently piggyback on the EU's terms, which we cannot do after Brexit. "Minor rejigging" and "we are on the inside looking out" are legally meaningless. Tell me what it takes to agree new trading terms and how that process can be achieved before April next year and I might reconsider my opinion. Notably, the leader of the WTO has said he doesn't know either although that was now a couple of years ago and hopefully he's been thinking about it a bit since then. Or maybe he hasn't.

Maybe there will be a leadership contest after the recess, but so far there are not enough letters to trigger a leadership contest and there has been plenty of time before the recess with nothing to show for it. And its doesn't change the fact that there's no other plan suggested, by anyone. Nearly two years since the Brexit vote, absolutely no-one has come up with any meaningful plan.

[Teaboy]

Isn't also the case that we will owe some or all of the £39 billion regardless as it is for existing commitments rather than a bribe for a future deal? Obviously in a no deal scenario we could walk away but brand Britain would take a knock, and the next time we try to buy a sofa on HP we'll find we need to go to Brighthouse instead