[teestub]

I thought the regulatory convergence/divergence issue was more to do with potentially maintaining 'frictionless' cross border trading, especially with the Republic of Ireland. It could be anything, but for example our animal welfare and meat production rules are currently aligned; if we wanted to relax our standards to allow the oft cited chlorination of chicken carcasses (as per the USA), then we would be out of alignment, and there would have to be additional processes put in place to assure that the exports to the republic were of a sufficient quality.

I've stopped paying so much attention, but part of the border deal with the Republic was regulatory alignment last time I checked (before double D said the agreement didn't really mean anything); this would leave us with EU regulations, but with no say in changing them.

[Ru]

The current concerns regarding regulatory alignment are mostly about customs and border procedures. Goods that pass between two countries with a shared regulatory system can pass without inspection - a "soft" border. Goods that pass between countries that do not share a regulatory system need to be inspected at the border to ensure that they comply with the inbound country's regulations - a "hard" border. The UK currently has soft borders with the EU and hard borders with everywhere else. The problems this creates depend on the product type. A particular issue is with food/agricultural products/medicine/other biological products that pose a possible public health risk. Currently, for instance, animal products (which includes anything of animal origin, e.g. powdered milk) that come into the UK from the EU have a much greater flexibility about where they enter the country than imports that come from third countries (outside of the EU). Third country imports of these products can only be imported through designated ports with border inspection posts, manned with "official veterinary surgeons" and require health certificates and other importation documents. In addition the date and time of the importation must be notified in advance so that the load can be inspected and that date and time can be varied at the convenience of the inspecting officer. So it costs a lot more in time/organisation/resources/risk to import animal products from outside the EU than from inside. If we have regulatory divergence from the EU that would create a hard border for all products (and there would be a similar one for exported products to the EU).

[Oldmanmatt]

The current concerns regarding regulatory alignment are mostly about customs and border procedures. Goods that pass between two countries with a shared regulatory system can pass without inspection - a "soft" border. Goods that pass between countries that do not share a regulatory system need to be inspected at the border to ensure that they comply - a "hard" border. The UK currently has soft borders with the EU and hard borders with everywhere else. The problems this creates depend on the product type. A particular issue is with food/agricultural products/medicine/other biological products whereby there is a possible public health risk. Currently, for instance, animal products (which includes anything of animal origin, i.e. powdered milk) that come into the UK from the EU have a much greater flexibility about where they enter the country than imports that come from third countries (outside of the EU). Third country imports of these products can only be imported through designated ports with border inspection posts, manned with "official veterinary surgeons" and require health certificates and other importation documents. In addition the date and time of the importation must be notified in advance so that the load can be inspected and that date and time can be varied at the convenience of the inspecting officer. So it costs a lot more in time/organisation/resources/risk to import animal products from outside the EU than from inside.

Yes.

One of the more irritating aspects of this debate, is that everyone seems to have forgotten how awful this process was (and probably will be again).
Possibly , spending a significant portion of my adult life living in “3rd Countries” and trying to organise shipments of spares/parts/consumables/food and stores etc, to ships in obscure ports; has given me an almost PTSD type reaction to customs regimes...

Again, it all seems rather pointless. Pretty sure we will end up having to conform to EU regs, with no influence on those regs.

[highrepute]

Thanks Tee and Ru.

So one benefit you mention is we can reduce regulation and therefore have lower quality but cheaper chicken. Would this be imported or UK origin or both? Apart from chicken what might these great new non-conforming imports be?

The other is that because we aren't in the EU we don't have to check imports from outside the EU so carefully/rigerously because we don't comply with their rules anymore therefore saving time/money on imports. Which I guess oldman will be pleased to hear.

As I understand it May is still talking about diverging more over time. There must be some significant benefit that divergence gives us right? or is there some other reason for desiring it?

[SamT]

Sorry - your losing me, you keep mentioning less regulation as a benefit.

I cant see why poisonous chicken and hazardous electrical goods are beneficial.

 

[Ru]

So one benefit is...

The other is that because we aren't in the EU we don't have to check imports from outside the EU so carefully/rigerously because we don't comply with their rules anymore therefore saving time/money on imports. Which I guess oldman will be pleased to hear.

No, it's not the case that regulatory divergence means you don't have to check imports, it's the opposite. You would have to check every import from anywhere. Even if you relax regulations you still need to check goods for compliance when they come in, unless you have regulatory alignment with the country they come in from. If we relax regulation about chlorinated chicken for example, that would not create regulatory alignment with the USA on all food and animal products, it would just be one regulation out of thousands, so goods would still need to be inspected at the borders.

[teestub]

There must be some significant benefit that divergence gives us right? or is there some other reason for desiring it?

Taking Back Control ^TM

Removing ourselves from the tyranny of the EU telling us what shape our bananas need to be, how clean our rivers should be and what employment rights you should have.

[highrepute]

I think you are right tim.

Reading about I think I understand better. If we "diverge" we can do away with "red tape" and that will save businesses lots of money.

What I find frustrating is I would like specific examples of how brexit might benefit us/me. But I just move from one catch phrase to the next but I don't know what they actually mean. "diverge", "red tape", "take back control", "brexit means brexit"

[Oldmanmatt]

So one benefit is...

The other is that because we aren't in the EU we don't have to check imports from outside the EU so carefully/rigerously because we don't comply with their rules anymore therefore saving time/money on imports. Which I guess oldman will be pleased to hear.

No, it's not the case that regulatory divergence means you don't have to check imports, it's the opposite. You now have to check every import from anywhere. Even if you relax regulations you still need to check goods for compliance when they come in, unless you have regulatory alignment with the country they come in from. If we relax regulation about chlorinated chicken for example, that would not create regulatory alignment with the USA on all food and animal products, it would just be one regulation out of thousands, so goods would still need to be inspected at the borders.

Erm, yes.

I think Highrepute is grabbing the wrong end of my stick. (An uncomfortable analogy, makes my eyes water).
I DON’T want things to return to the way they were, pre-customs union. I remember how it was and have experience of how bad it can be in Third Countries and dealing with the EU.
Christ, it was bad enough invoicing Swiss companies (when I was still consulting) and they had a “special” tax harmonisation with the EU and picking up goods, often meant “popping” down to Gibraltar/North Africa etc.
A very superficial skim of the difficulty, actually.

[Ru]

If we "diverge" we can do away with "red tape" and that will save businesses lots of money.

What I find frustrating is I would like specific examples of how brexit might benefit us/me.

Here's a reasonable rule of thumb test:

Do you own a business or a lot of shares in a business that would make more money from relaxed regulation? Would you like to have more money?

If the answer to both questions is yes, relaxed regulation post brexit will probably benefit you. If the answer to either question is no, it probably won't.

[Johnny Brown]

We buy and sell from/ to Europe every week. There is no hassle involved. Last week we sold some equipment to the Middle East. The hassle was beyond belief - no wonder no one else would do it.

Climbing gear is a good example - do you want to be able to change/lower our standards so we can buy gear from China that doesn't meet EN standards? Standards are expensive things to draw up and expensive to meet. Unless the standard applies across a big market it isn't worth doing.

[Oldmanmatt]

Personally, I’m looking forward to not having to follow the EU standard for Artificial Climbing Structures. Matting is really expensive, so maybe I’ll just switch to 50mm of foam over some old cardboard. And 4.5mtrs over the mats max height? Pussy height, more like! I can squeeze in another couple of meters. And fall zones? What’s that shit about?
I have no doubt we will be able to adopt/adapt/ create replacements for all these standards instantly. Even obscure ones like Artificial Climbing structures. I’m sure we can just adopt any EU reg or standard and not encounter and Copyright, intellectual property or licensing issues.
I remember how that went in the UAE. The EU was absolutely fine about the whole thing...ish.

We are not going to end up with less regulation, immediately. Our plan is to enshine thecurrent into UK law. Divergence will come as/when/if we fail to follow future changes to EU law.

Of course, divergence would be a setious hinderance to trade, so is highly unlikely.

AKA: We leave the club committee, lose member rights, but end up having to follow the rules anyway.

Actually, this is a full “Hotel California”  and one of the biggest complaints Remainers keep coming back to. This is pointless, we can check out any time we want, but we can never really leave.

[Oldmanmatt]

Actually, typed that when I sat down for a tea break. Before I finished the cuppa, there’s a ping and a little red badge pops up on the Groanniard app...

You can’t escape the gloomy news, it far outweighs the positive forecasting (The Torygraph has been silent, which usually means they don’t like the news today).

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/20/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-forecasts-growth-uk-economy?CMP=fb_gu

Incidentally, on a different but related topic.

Did anyone else choke on their Espresso, reading that bit about the Yank rep at the UN telling the rest of the world that Trump was “Taking names” of everyone that voted against recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital? That it was “Personal”?

I so look forward to being even more closely aligned with that bunch of ...

[Oldmanmatt]

I’ve been busy, today.

It’s half term, took the kids trampolining. Just rocked up at work, got the squad training kicked off and sat down with a coffee to catch up on the papers (Valentines this morning, so no reading allowed).

Started with the Times...

Hmmm.
Fucking Johnson.


Pop on to the Torygraph, that’ll give it a positive s
Ant and not merely focus on his gaffes, right?

Aarrghh!

The “O-so-pious” Groanyarse, that will at least be an amusing take.

Aaaarrrgghhhhh!

Independent? (indeschmendent, Oi Veh).


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrr(urk, cough)ggggghhh!

Coffee now cold.


Squad members staring at me in youthful bemusement as I realise I’m actually muttering outloud:

“Carrots? Fucking Carrots? I’ll fucking make your fucking Carrots Organic you fucking mopheaded twat monkey!”

[SamT]

 
.
.
.
 

[tomtom]

<profanity alert>
I can't believe that

NSFW  :

cunt

Johnson gets the airtime...

The fucking wanker steps out of a red bus every day for a month peddling a LIE about UK EU contributions - and now has the fucking brass neck to say - don't be angry - every one get together - it'll be alright....

So we should believe you this time right? Tool.

Shame on you Johnson - I hope history remembers you as the attention grabbing Machiavellian fool that I consider you to be.
</profanity alert>

[SA Chris]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/populist-italy-europe-eu-countries-european-brexit

An interesting development? Lore interested to hear your thoughts....

[i.munro]

Not a thought but a feeling of profound depression.

[Oldmanmatt]

Really worthwhile watch, not short, but revealing.
So far, that which they mention, which I then fact-check; checks out.
Can anyone spot any flaws?

Three Blokes in a pub:

[petejh]

Can anyone spot any flaws?

Boring cunt #3s ADR manual is 7 years out of date. 2011 version 

[Oldmanmatt]

So...
All bollocks then?

[petejh]

I've no idea, I listened to approx 2 mins of three people talking about how terrible they thought everything was before turning off. I can listen to pessimistic cunts for real anytime I want to, I don't need to youtube them.

[tomtom]

It’s quite encouraging in a perverse way. No deal is such a colossal fuck up that it won’t be allowed to happen - or after 3 months of food shortages then everything costing 40% more the govt would be toast and we’d go back.

You should persevere Pete - for sure it’s three people against the idea - but they have some really interesting insight into how import export works - and how trade deals work.

[Oldmanmatt]

I've no idea, I listened to approx 2 mins of three people talking about how terrible they thought everything was before turning off. I can listen to pessimistic cunts for real anytime I want to, I don't need to youtube them.

And yet, it was considerably more than two minutes in that the book appeared...

You really do care, don’t you? You old softy you.

Y’know, what with the speed of your response n’all...

You better be careful, you might find yourself voting Lib-Dem and volunteering at the soup kitchen soon.

Edit:

Oh, and you forgot to mention the hat on Boring guy #1, which clearly invalidates any subsequent statments or information he may make or relay.

[petejh]

It was something like 50 mins in, I slid the time bar along and noticed BG3 put a book on the table so I stopped to watch what it was. No, I really don't care Matt. They're saying the same things people have been saying for the last 2.5 years, it isn't new info from what I can tell.