[Yossarian]

Just trying to find the link to the opinion piece Phil Collins wrote for Prospect. Think it was called No Brexit Required...

[tomtom]

I knew something was in the air tonight.

[jfdm]

I also think the debate has suffered as a result of the competitive political commenting which some people are literally making careers out of,..... oooh it's AC Grayling,

The only thing I've engaged with today is my hostility towards Boris. I am looking forward to his eventual sacrifice which I hope will be both decisive and bloodthirsty...

To be honest I'm not bothered about what ACG has for breakfast.
Yesterday was told I'm not being sensible.
Had a mooch, came across acrticle by Grayling which chimed with what I said.
I'd like to think Mr G is sensible so posted it up.

A lot of talk about trade and the economic side of things.
But nothing on the biggy immigration.
Talk about stopping EU immigration but nothing about Non -EU immigration.
Brexit leaders stated that immigration should be the 10's of thousands.
Link to most recent immigration stats.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics


I'd just like to know why Cons are out raving and so enthusiastic about Brexit.
After referendum result nobody wanted to own the issue.
They were never this enthusiastic about health, education, equality etc.

I can only think that behind the scenes lots of moving and shaking going on.
So the winners aren't those who voted for Brexit, but big business.
Those with deep pockets, not Becky Brexit or Rob the Remainer.

We have the big repeal bill to look forward to.
Who is going to protect workers rights, the environment etc
I'm sure it won't be Theresa, or Boris.

Yes Yossi your right Boris, Hunt, Gove, Fox, Cameron all deserve a long painful demise....

[shark]

I also think the debate has suffered as a result of the competitive political commenting which some people are literally making careers out of,..... oooh it's AC Grayling,

The only thing I've engaged with today is my hostility towards Boris. I am looking forward to his eventual sacrifice which I hope will be both decisive and bloodthirsty...

To be honest I'm not bothered about what ACG has for breakfast.
Yesterday was told I'm not being sensible.
Had a mooch, came across acrticle by Grayling which chimed with what I said.
I'd like to think Mr G is sensible so posted it up.

A lot of talk about trade and the economic side of things.
But nothing on the biggy immigration.
Talk about stopping EU immigration but nothing about Non -EU immigration.
Brexit leaders stated that immigration should be the 10's of thousands.
Link to most recent immigration stats.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics


I'd just like to know why Cons are out raving and so enthusiastic about Brexit.
After referendum result nobody wanted to own the issue.
They were never this enthusiastic about health, education, equality etc.

I can only think that behind the scenes lots of moving and shaking going on.
So the winners aren't those who voted for Brexit, but big business.
Those with deep pockets, not Becky Brexit or Rob the Remainer.

We have the big repeal bill to look forward to.
Who is going to protect workers rights, the environment etc
I'm sure it won't be Theresa, or Boris.

Yes Yossi your right Boris, Hunt, Gove, Fox, Cameron all deserve a long painful demise....

Is this beat poetry or iambic pentameter?

[Oldmanmatt]

He's been taking lessons from me.

Shame Dense isn't around to get wound up about it.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Yossarian]

In terms of the Tory Eurosceptics, I think a lot of it dates back to the early days of the EEC and the architects of the Euro, and the fact that the latter always had in mind a fully federalised Europe. Partly as that would be the only way they saw the Euro would work, and partly because, if you're into greater and greater union, then why not continue to its natural conclusion. So, if you're a Tory with ideological issues about what you see as a radical European experiment, it's a pretty straightforward position to take.

All the pro-Brexit firebrands like Hannan, etc seem to totally define themselves along these lines. Looks, here - another opinion piece - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/daniel-hannan-the-man-who-brought-you-brexit

It would've been ok if it had just been a bunch of stuffy Spectator readers droning on about it, but once UKIP figured out that, if they rephrased it as an immigration and money-in-your-pocket issue, lots of basic, gullible people thought it might be a good idea too. I think, in a lot of ways, Farage is a genius. Blair had a brilliant team behind him, but Farage has done it largely himself. Fuck up this country, fuck up European politics for the next few years, fuck up the US election...

[petejh]

That doesn't explain those people who voted for brexit who a) aren't natural Tories and b) aren't supporters of Farage or ukip. Clearly a majority were one or the other, but I'd be interested to see some stats of the breakdown of political views of leave voters.

Finding a federalised European state unattractive isn't the preserve of Tory or ukip supporters. I think you can find that ideology in voters from all parts of the spectrum.

[Yossarian]

No, I quite agree. The interesting thing was how the argument was framed, and how it was quite independent of left / right ideology. Or ended up as such, partly thanks to Corbyn...

[slackline]

I can only think that behind the scenes lots of moving and shaking going on.
So the winners aren't those who voted for Brexit, but big business.
Those with deep pockets, not Becky Brexit or Rob the Remainer.

Excuse my cynicism but that seems an underlying theme that plays out across the board in many democracies and not just post-communist countries.

For example there are many MPs across all parties (i.e. its also not linked to ideology) who have a conflict of interest with regards to healthcare and privatisation (dated but demonstrates the prevalence and I doubt things have changed much).

"That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital."

Noam Chomsky

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks, interesting commentary.

[petejh]

I took that political compass test a year or two ago, and just took it again this morning. The result both times was the same - lower left area of the bottom left quadrant (libertarian socialism), same as quite a few others on here no doubt. According to the commentary on that site regarding brexit voters, I shouldn't have voted the way I did.

[mr chaz]

I shouldn't have voted the way I did.

Well at least you've admitted it now

[Johnny Brown]

That questionnaire seems to be framed to lead anyone well to the left of centre.

[petejh]

As is the tone of their commentary on brexit.

[Jim]

The only thing I've engaged with today is my hostility towards Boris. I am looking forward to his eventual sacrifice which I hope will be both decisive and bloodthirsty...

I'm amazed this hasn't already happened TBH - what an absolute buffoon the man is! His head would look great on a spike with his stupid floppy hair wafting about in the breeze

[seankenny]

No, I don't agree it's as simple as that.

For some reasons why, I recommend this as reading material.
Before anyone says, I'm not betting the farm on everything they suggest coming true. But neither am I taking what you just said at face value as inevitable.


For e.g., who was aware of this fact about who actually pays for German exports to EU countries? (i.e. Germany does!). And therefore why there's much more leverage than at first glance resulting from the UK leaving the EU and becoming a non-EU customer to Germany.

(for those who can't be bothered)
With subdued domestic demand, Germany and the EU depend on trade-induced moderate growth including close trading relations with Britain. Nine EU countries send at least 5% of their total exports to the UK. In Germany whose economy is highly export-dependent, that percentage is about 7.5% of total exports. In 2015 Germany’s trade surplus with the UK alone was a staggering €51bn, about one fifth of Germany’s entire trade surplus.

If anything, these figures understate Germany’s economic dependency on Britain. In 2015 around 36% of Germany’s total exports went to the Eurozone. However, under the so-called TARGET2 payments systems operated by the European Central Bank, Germany’s balance of payments surplus with the eurozone is financed not by the transfer of foreign currency reserves, gold or other near-liquid assets to Germany but by an open-ended overdraft facility granted by the Bundesbank.

Under this peculiar system, the exporter is paid but not by the importing country but Germany’s central bank, i.e. the German public at large, which never receives payment from the importing country but a mere credit note from the importing country’s central bank. As of July 2016 the Bundesbank’s TARGET2 balance stood at over €660bn. That sum is the total debt owed by other eurozone central banks to the Bundesbank, which is unlikely ever to be repaid. The Bundesbank, in other words, has become another ‘bad bank’ financing the current account deficits of other eurozone members. Germany’s trade surplus with the eurozone therefore is little more than a massive ‘accounting trick.’ If German eurozone exports were paid for in the same way as her other exports, Germany would be a much richer country. That Germany is moderately prosperous at all, is owed in large measure to her ‘real’ non-eurozone trade surplus. Germany and, by analogy, other export-driven eurozone economies depend on trade with the UK as a key trade partner outside the dysfunctional eurozone much more than is commonly realised.

I have no idea whether this argument is true or relevant. But let's assume that it is.

To suggest this issue will act as a very important factor in how Germany approaches the Brexit negotiations requires two further assumptions. Firstly, that the Germans wouldn't want to take a decision which was based on their political goals and how they envisage the future of their country, even if it was economically harmful. And secondly, that having done so, and seen some constraint on their ability to export to an important market, that they wouldn't then be able to replace that market with faster growing ones further away.

Now where have I seen arguments like that before...?
 

[slackline]

Owen Patterson (ex-minister) and John Longworth (Leave Means Leave) laughed at in Germany when suggesting the UK is "a beacon of open, free trade around the world"

The occasional light-hearted attempts at EU-bashing - usually guaranteed to get a cheap laugh with some British audiences - was met with stony silence.  In another setting - at another time - this gathering of the elite of Germany's powerful business community would have lapped up the British wit. Every ironic quip would ordinarily have had them rolling in the aisles. But British charm does not travel well these days. Rattled by the economic havoc Brexit could unleash, Germans are not in the mood for gags.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-guy-hands-says-cut-wages-30-percent-twenty-years-private-equity-a7540986.html

Just read it.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[petejh]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-guy-hands-says-cut-wages-30-percent-twenty-years-private-equity-a7540986.html

Just read it.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

Economic predictions for 20 years hence, really??? Total and utter bollocks and a complete waste of time. You might as well ask the tea leaves.

[Oldmanmatt]

Nah, tea leaves no, successful fund managers? Worth paying attention to.
Still all expert opinion anti-brexit, still no credible pro argument.
Wow! This is a really big bubble!


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[petejh]

''Still all expert opinion anti-brexit''.

This is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen you write. Yep, you're in a bubble alright.

[Oldmanmatt]

No Pete, you are the probrexit reality denier. You have been all along. Rose tinted specs and glorious Empire, with tea and cakes for all.
It's a bad idea.
Most people that voted for it didn't understand what they voted for.
It'll make most of those very same people poorer for at least a decade.
You are a dreamer, mate. I'm hardly alone in my bubble, here. For some reason you take my rebuttals of your tripe personally (oops, did I say that out loud?).

You are happy to predict a land of milk and honey after the "little hiccups " and "speed bumps", twenty years from now, but cry foul if someone with a real investment track record says the opposite? And I'm dumb? Look in the mirror.

And read it again, he said it would be good for the economy, bad for working and middle class people.

Next time you call me dumb, remember you voted Brexit, along with every racist Nazi in the country, but I don't accuse you of being one of them.
You are deluded and bamboozled by Farage and his ilk, but call remainers dumb?

Show me the expert opinion in support of your claim, that can't be refuted with the quickest google search.
It's been done again and sgain throughout this thread. By many people.
But that's ok it's everyone else who's wrong or just guessing, you are making informed prognostications of almost omniscient worth...

No, you're not.


Still waiting for your experts. Been waiting since day one of the thread.



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[Yossarian]

On the plus side, Keir "Because I'm worth it" Starmer is doing sterling work as the Shadow Brexit Secretary, and I'm thinking of putting money on him becoming the next Labour leader.

That haircut deserves international recognition.

[jfdm]

No Pete, you are the probrexit reality denier. You have been all along. Rose tinted specs and glorious Empire, with tea and cakes for all.
It's a bad idea.
Most people that voted for it didn't understand what they voted for.
It'll make most of those very same people poorer for at least a decade.
You are a dreamer, mate. I'm hardly alone in my bubble, here. For some reason you take my rebuttals of your tripe personally (oops, did I say that out loud?).

You are happy to predict a land of milk and honey after the "little hiccups " and "speed bumps", twenty years from now, but cry foul if someone with a real investment track record says the opposite? And I'm dumb? Look in the mirror.

And read it again, he said it would be good for the economy, bad for working and middle class people.

Next time you call me dumb, remember you voted Brexit, along with every racist Nazi in the country, but I don't accuse you of being one of them.
You are deluded and bamboozled by Farage and his ilk, but call remainers dumb?

Show me the expert opinion in support of your claim, that can't be refuted with the quickest google search.
It's been done again and sgain throughout this thread. By many people.
But that's ok it's everyone else who's wrong or just guessing, you are making informed prognostications of almost omniscient worth...

No, you're not.


Still waiting for your experts. Been waiting since day one of the thread.



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Don't bother respondeding to it.
He's got his big spoon out and keeps stirring it to get a reaction.
I think PDiddy Pete voted Remain.
Alternative facts alive and well in both the USA and UKB.
I'm off to do laps on Action Direct, with a head torch. 

[Oldmanmatt]

Head torch!

Pah! Half a candle in your right hand is the only true way!


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