[Jaspersharpe]

*resists posting the Stewart Lee Ukip link again* What's wrong with worshipping a tree!?

[tomtom]

Is this village thing like when someone from UKc posts here?

[Oldmanmatt]

Is this village thing like when someone from UKc posts here?

Bloody UKc'ians, coming over here stealing our... Ummm.... Stuff.


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[Somebody's Fool]

Now if they could graft Corbyn’s brains and policies into someone else’s body then everything might be OK. But that isn’t the proposal.

His body isn't the problem. The problem is he's too electable.

He has captured the imagination of a lot of people in a very short space of time. And he’s done it using decency, honesty and fairness.  No one is really attracted to his policies because the media won’t let him tell anyone what they are.

The conspiracy of silence and slurs from the mainstream media is beyond belief. Now that the BBC and Guardian (with Channel 4 currently being threatened into line) don't question the government, the ENTIRE media are all mouthpieces of a very rattled establishment, who, until Corbyn's surge in popularity, thought they were well on their way to a one party state.

It's frustrating when people, whose interests Corbyn best represents, rehash the usual cliches - he's unelectable, he can't lead, he's weak, he'll never win a general election etc etc. And it's always delivered with a tone of knowing contempt to another naive Corbyn supporter - when all that's really being done is an uncritical regurgitation of what they've read/seen in the right wing press.

If you watch the speech I’ve linked to, he suggests putting up corporation tax by 0.5% to make university education free again. It’s hardly the communist manifesto. And the renationalisation of the railways has a lot of support among the middle ground Labour need to swing towards them.

I think there's a large proportion of our population with the intelligence and education to know that the papers have a vested interest, but still believe the BBC to be fair and balanced. The BBC's integrity is so ingrained in the national psyche it makes it the most dangerous and effective vehicle for government propaganda there currently is.

Basically, if the BBC are bashing Corbyn, he must deserve it. This is how most people will form their initial opinion of Corbyn. And as I'm finding with my girlfriend's mother, you can come out with all the reason you like, but to try to change someone's gut instinct is to challenge their pride, and is not easy.

I think there's a genuine chance he could be this country's next Prime Minister. I'm not sure how feasible it would be, but a coalition of Labour and SNP on an anti-austerity ticket would not need to unseat too many tories to form a majority. And there's probably going to be four years to build on the amazing support Corbyn already has.

Cameron might have fucked up by losing the referendum, but the whole enterprise has been very successful in divvying up the working and lower middle classes between Labour and UKIP. This has been enabled by a media who give Farage way more airtime than Corbyn.

The political class, which includes the PLP, are terrified of Corbyn. And if there’s any chance at all of dislodging the Tories, traditional Labour voters have not only got to get behind him, but help spread his message too.

I'm a fan of his btw.

[Offwidth]

To get elected as PM you need to convince the political middle ground in marginal seats : labour MPs did and will continue to do this (unless deselected to fit in very leftist Momentum candidates). Corbyn can't even convince all the socialists (including the majority of his socialist, non Blairite MP's).

As a left leaning voter I believe in much of what he says as labour leader but his leadership has been much weaker and unifying for his party than it should have been. I continue to distrust some of his most fervent backers from Seumas Milne to my fellow SWP trade unionists (to whom this is just a means to a revolutionary end).  This attempted coup looks dodgy and maybe is but a leadership election, which is looking increasingly likely, would mainly benefit the tories and might even split the party. You, cant run an opposition if you cant fill the key shadow posts form people on the left of a  left wing party.

[tomtom]

So Somebody's...

If we take what you say at face value - then you either have to change the whole media/organisation/set up of the U.K. (A revolution in many ways) so his message isn't hidden - and everyone can have the truth revealed to them.

Or - what most politicians have had to do.. Is learn to work with and manipulate the existing media. For a start you could talk to them - rather than ignore... Be friendly to them... Maybe even cosy up to them - then get your point across.

Which one do you think would work in our present society?

Let's take UKIP. Let's say they suffer more than Labour at the hands of the media. Let's face it media coverage of them ranges from depicting them as nutters - to depicting them as racist xenophobes. They (I would say) have undeniably had a FAR worse time from the uK media in the last 5 years than Labour. But because they have a charismatic (wanker) leader - who knows how to play the press... They are (in terms of percentage vote growth) the most successful political party of the last 5 years of not longer. Jesus - they were fundamental in swinging the most important vote and upset in recent history.


Anyway. When we talk about mandates and number of votes etc... Remember Len McLusky who certainly supports JC was elected by 14% of Unites membership.. And I seem to remember JC justified voting against the Blair government several (many times) as that's what he said his electorate told him. The same reason many of the PLP are using to go against him as present leader.... He's a decent speaker - and speaks from the heart. But it's always (from what I see) speeches to the converted.. Can you ever see him having a Nick Clegg (what nick said) moment where he wins over those who vote Tory, UKIP or liberal?

[Oldmanmatt]

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[dave]

Let's take UKIP. Let's say they suffer more than Labour at the hands of the media. Let's face it media coverage of them ranges from depicting them as nutters - to depicting them as racist xenophobes. They (I would say) have undeniably had a FAR worse time from the uK media in the last 5 years than Labour.

UKIP get far more airtime than they deserve. Farage has appeared on Question Time more times over the last few years than any other politician, despite having failed to be elected as an MP 7 times and who barely shows up to do his paid elected job as an MEP. If anything UKIP do exceptionally well out of the media for a party with a classless proto-Hitler leader and a selection of MPs and local candidates who's pantomime-villain-like lack of basic humanity would render them ineffective as scarecrows never mind elected representatives.

[a dense loner]

So in the last 4 posts on 2 different subjects we've had 4 remain voters who've completely disagreed with each other. Ain't politics great

[slackline]

UKIP get far more airtime than they deserve. Farage has appeared on Question Time more times over the last few years than any other politician, despite having failed to be elected as an MP 7 times and who barely shows up to do his paid elected job as an MEP. If anything UKIP do exceptionally well out of the media for a party with a classless proto-Hitler leader and a selection of MPs and local candidates who's pantomime-villain-like lack of basic humanity would render them ineffective as scarecrows never mind elected representatives.

You could almost argue its a  self-fulfilling prophecy, given the air time the message will find resonance with some of the electorate in varying amounts.

If only it were applied evenly to all parties and their policies (I've zero interest in who happens to be the figurehead of a given party at any given time, I don't vote for them, I vote for their policies, the sooner people realise this the better).

[johnx2]

the PLP, are terrified of Corbyn

Why?

It is because they're all (the 80% of Lab MPs, the Corbynite strategy seems to be to deselect)  are power-hungry neo-liberal Blairite warmongers who do not want to be led to a certain general election win even though they are power-hungry?

If the reason the PLP is out to get him isn't that he's not up to the job, what is it meant to be?

Alternatively he's a "man of steel" (you don't need a Russian GCSE to know MclCluskey's description is a little unfortunate?),  whom we shouldn't bully by letting his deputy leader (or anyone else) speak to him privately...

(fwiw I agree with a lot of the policies and would vote for them in a PR system where some could become govt policy, but we're in FPTP system where you have to build your coalition - a political party - before the election not after. Corbyn can't do this and needs to go now.)

[dave]

UKIP get far more airtime than they deserve. Farage has appeared on Question Time more times over the last few years than any other politician, despite having failed to be elected as an MP 7 times and who barely shows up to do his paid elected job as an MEP. If anything UKIP do exceptionally well out of the media for a party with a classless proto-Hitler leader and a selection of MPs and local candidates who's pantomime-villain-like lack of basic humanity would render them ineffective as scarecrows never mind elected representatives.

You could almost argue its a  self-fulfilling prophecy, given the air time the message will find resonance with some of the electorate in varying amounts.

Yeah it is self-fulfilling, or at least semi self-perpetuating. For a similar reason it's hard to know what the Lib Dem policy on anything is at the moment, because despite having eight times as many MPs as UKIP they only get 100000th of the airtime and media coverage. I would wager the average man on the street would struggle to name the Lib Dem leader at the minute. I could name him but not pick him out of a police lineup.

[slackline]

Back on-topic...

A law firm is taking action to ensure the formal process for the UK leaving the EU is not started without an act of Parliament.

[galpinos]

I could name him but not pick him out of a police lineup.

He's the one with the ichthys on his lapel.

And in breaking news, Farage quits........

[slackline]

And in breaking news, Farage quits........

  and already posted in Tedious political thread

[Somebody's Fool]

If the reason the PLP is out to get him isn't that he's not up to the job, what is it meant to be?

The PLP are as embedded in the political class as anyone else. The coup isn’t an attempt to oust him because he might lose, but because he might win. The untruth at its heart is why it’s been so shambolic. A progressive social democracy is as unwelcome to Labour MPs (or ex MPs) as it is to Tory MPs. They're content to be in opposition while the Tories are on the other side making them richer.

The disconnect between the PLP and their voters is wider than ever and is the reason Labour won’t win. The PLP continue to insult the intelligence of Labour voters by persevering with the narrative that Corbyn is a loser, despite him gaining ground. It wasn’t Corbyn who lost the last two general elections. Nor was it Corbyn who lost Scotland. That was down to those now calling for Corbyn’s head.

People are sick of having two Tory parties. It’s not that difficult to understand.

[psychomansam]

And in breaking news, Farage quits........

  and already posted in Tedious political thread

So one of the influential leaders of the successful campaign on the EU referendum quits just after the EU referendum, gaining more airtime for his views on the fallout from the EU referendum and makes numerous comments about what should be done about the EU referendum. But that's not, according to you, relevant to a thread on the EU referendum? I don't mind you being a pedant, but at least live up to your sig and be a correct one.


What do you mean I'm venting my anger? I am not! 

[johnx2]

You've sat through the coalition and first year of the current govt and think they're all the same? I'll take the tory party that doubled public spending on health.

80% of Lab MPs, his front bench and shadow cabinet want Corbyn to step down because they think he'll win a general election? Really? Really really??

I want to say there's no debating with that kind of logic but that's the trouble, people only seem to want to talk to people who agree with them, so you get jaw droppers like:

They're content to be in opposition while the Tories are on the other side making them richer.

Seriously,  you think that's what 80% of Labout MPs (like Jo Cox) are content to do?

[i.munro]

You've sat through the coalition and first year of the current govt and think they're all the same? I'll take the tory party that doubled public spending on health.

80% of Lab MPs, his front bench and shadow cabinet want Corbyn to step down because they think he'll win a general election? Really? Really really??

At least it's an explanation for behaviour that otherwise seems utterly irrational.. Alternatively someone's been spiking the Commons water coolers with LSD.

[johnx2]

...alternative explanations are available.

 

[slackline]

I don't mind you being a pedant, but at least live up to your sig and be a correct one.

I am, the discussion of party leaders post-referendum is  * and tedious.

Many people don't bother trawling through the archives to find relevant threads worthy of resurrection and instead use the convenience of the most recently, vaguely related thread thats seen some topic drift to post about a vaguely related topic, or worse still just start a new topic (viz. the profusion of finger injury threads). 









* In my opinion.

[Offwidth]

Is Chris Evans resignation Brexit related? ;-)

[slackline]

Who?

[tomtom]

Keep the discussion here - there doesn't seem to be any appetite apart from Slackers (sorry slackers) to move it elsewhere... It's teetering on the edge of the logpile chasm as it is

[johnx2]

Keep the discussion here - there doesn't seem to be any appetite apart from Slackers (sorry slackers) to move it elsewhere... It's teetering on the edge of the logpile chasm as it is

So we have a lone figure making a principled stand according to the rules on the purity and direction of the thread, ruling leadership discussion out, against a larger number pursuing a pragmatic line to keep it in the thread. Can we have a vote on this?