[seankenny]

It's just like how when India became independent in 1947, support wasn't dependent on what political flavour was likely to get elected in the first instance.

Actually it kinda was. Which is why India and Pakistan becamse independent in 1947.

To broaden your point a little further, countries which fought for independence usually know exactly what political flavour they were getting afterwards. Congress, ANC, Zanu, etc. If we've just got independence, the style in which it was done is a bit of an outlier.

[webbo]

Just two points: I've not called them fascists, or racists, or dictatorial, but rather people who have emboldened those types. That's a very different thing. I totally accept they voted for very good reasons - in fact I wrote that too - but I get that saying  that good motivations can lead to awful outcomes and then suggesting they are in some very small way responsible for those outcomes makes people uncomfortable. It's the whole means and ends thing isn't it? If you get what you want, but at the price of your fellow countrymen and women feeling frightened to leave the house - perhaps there was a problem with the way you got it.

And do I believe this shit was there already? Some of it, but that assumes a set level of racism in society. I'm not sure I believe that but I could be wrong. There's no doubt several PhDs worth of work unpicking those sentences.

Anyhow, we now have a soiled and grim element to our national culture but that's okay because no ones making laws on kettles.

I don't where you live or frequent but I am staggered that you are not aware of the levels of racism in our society. I come across it at work from patients seeing an Asian doctor , you come across it in industry and in country pubs listening to the local farm workers.
I'm sure there are many more examples.

I don't know where you live, but I'm in London and the thought that our big companies, the government or any other large organisation could function well with that level of racism is staggering.

I would nip down your to your local A&E dept speak to any staff who aren't white Anglo Saxon ask them about their experiences or sit in the waiting room there or at your Gps and listen to the comments of the patients about the non white British staff and you might get idea of the levels of racism/ xenophobia.

[Oldmanmatt]

It's just like how when India became independent in 1947, support wasn't dependent on what political flavour was likely to get elected in the first instance.

Actually it kinda was. Which is why India and Pakistan becamse independent in 1947.

To broaden your point a little further, countries which fought for independence usually know exactly what political flavour they were getting afterwards. Congress, ANC, Zanu, etc. If we've just got independence, the style in which it was done is a bit of an outlier.

There was a rather nasty, racist, war about that whole Indian independence thing. It's still simmering and threatening to go nuclear...




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[SA Chris]

Surely independence from (often oppressive) historic colonial rule can't be compared to a modern day situation of a country wanting independence from a union of countries?

[seankenny]

It's just like how when India became independent in 1947, support wasn't dependent on what political flavour was likely to get elected in the first instance.

Actually it kinda was. Which is why India and Pakistan becamse independent in 1947.

To broaden your point a little further, countries which fought for independence usually know exactly what political flavour they were getting afterwards. Congress, ANC, Zanu, etc. If we've just got independence, the style in which it was done is a bit of an outlier.

There was a rather nasty, racist, war about that whole Indian independence thing. It's still simmering and threatening to go nuclear...




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If one wanted to draw any conclusions about that whole Indian independence thing, it's that the Brits aren't good leavers... 

[seankenny]

Surely independence from (often oppressive) historic colonial rule can't be compared to a modern day situation of a country wanting independence from a union of countries?

Of course it can't. But if you did want to draw a lesson from it, you might want to aim for some degree of accuracy!

[Oldmanmatt]

Hold the Phone!

We're ok, the Government's got this!

Someone hold his beer.




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[slackline]

I voted to leave so that we could in future have whatever government we vote for.

The referendum on that was five years ago.

[Jaspersharpe]

Pete and stone have just helped to make me think that my original point was right. Pick your own idealism vs reality.

And slackers is totally correct. The most important referendum we have had, which could have actually taken a big step to fairer, more representative politics and most people ignored it.

[dave]

Love the talk of being ruled by unaccountable shadowy figures in Brussels, when we much prefer our unaccountable rulers to at least have the decency to own large swathes of the print and broadcast media instead. Same fucking difference.

[lagerstarfish]

[Jaspersharpe]

Hold the Phone!

We're ok, the Government's got this!

Someone hold his beer.




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I thought Boris also said recently that we were exporting lots of cake to France. Which cake can we eat now when one's been sold to France and the other one's been shat in? How many cakes are there to not eat? Do we get the French export cake back or do we eat shit? Do any of the cakes actually exist or are they libertarian cakes?

The public should be told!

[Jaspersharpe]

That's the best Downfall parody ever. Where did you find it?

[nai]

And slackers is totally correct. The most important referendum we have had, which could have actually taken a big step to fairer, more representative politics and most people ignored it.

Been dipping in and out of this so excuse me if this point has been made and debated, but it seems to me that this is what a lot of Leave voters actually wanted, simply to have someone in parliament that represents them, whether that's the ukip supporters or those in the uk's remoter or less affluent areas, rather than a government elected by 24% of the electorate ooposed by a bunch of carbon copies with different colour rosettes.

And now I think of it maybe that's why Scotland voted Remain, because the SNP do have a large swathe of seats that over-represents their actual voting proportion in parliament? In fact they might have the best seats/votes ratio in the house.

[Jaspersharpe]

On the point of changing politics for the better, this is actually what you get from voting leave, and this is also why so many did....

http://gu.com/p/4n5n7?

“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

This is scary shit.

[Oldmanmatt]

Hold the Phone!

We're ok, the Government's got this!

Someone hold his beer.




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I thought Boris also said recently that we were exporting lots of cake to France. Which cake can we eat now when one's been sold to France and the other one's been shat in? How many cakes are there to not eat? Do we get the French export cake back or do we eat shit? Do any of the cakes actually exist or are they libertarian cakes?

The public should be told!

For this we need a seance and a quick word with Marie Antoinette.

Of course we'd need to do that before they invoke article 50, as she might not cooperate after.


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[lagerstarfish]

That's the best Downfall parody ever. Where did you find it?

Mrs Starfish showed it to me

fuck me, we laughed a lot

[Jaspersharpe]

That's the best Downfall parody ever. Where did you find it?

Mrs Starfish showed it to me

fuck me, we laughed a lot

In a kind of, that's really, really funny but.... far too true way. Me too.

[lagerstarfish]

Spitting Image quality

speaking of which - did people listen to Dead Ringers this weekend? cracking Brexit sketches

[Oldmanmatt]

Spitting Image quality

speaking of which - did people listen to Dead Ringers this weekend? cracking Brexit sketches

There has been some quite amusing tirades knocking around, I Like this one:



"So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?"


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[Jaspersharpe]

Pretty decent summary.

[tomtom]

Christ what's happening in politics. I find myself wishing Nick Clegg was back in the frame... That's nearly as bad as wishing Glenn Hoddle was made England manager.

Oh.

[jfdm]

Watched this yesterday to get away from all the doom and gloom.
This is brilliant about Wedgewood pots.
Will watch the others in the series when I get the chance.
Shows what makes Great Britain great.
But also shows the decline of industry in this country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07fky64/handmade-by-royal-appointment-1-wedgwood

[Jaspersharpe]

Christ what's happening in politics. I find myself wishing Nick Clegg was back in the frame... That's nearly as bad as wishing Glenn Hoddle was made England manager.

Oh.

Hoddle won't be England manager and Clegg is the least appreciated politician of his generation.

[Oldmanmatt]

Christ what's happening in politics. I find myself wishing Nick Clegg was back in the frame... That's nearly as bad as wishing Glenn Hoddle was made England manager.

Oh.

Hoddle won't be England manager and Clegg is the least appreciated politician of his generation.

It's alright, Gove's wife has everything under control and has given him his orders. As long as Bojo promises him a nice cushy job.

http://news.sky.com/story/1719331/goves-wife-raises-johnson-leadership-concerns


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