[Oldmanmatt]

Sorry for the LinkedIn post but...

 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-minister-justice-incited-outbreaks-alleged-hate-crime-marlow

It's also apparent that things are tense here in the Bay, many posts on the local "Spotted" page, along with pretty foul comments about "put up with it princess, you're in our country" and "so what? We should kick the fat people out next" etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oldmanmatt]

Sorry for the LinkedIn post but...

 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-minister-justice-incited-outbreaks-alleged-hate-crime-marlow

It's also apparent that things are tense here in the Bay, many posts on the local "Spotted" page, along with pretty foul comments about "put up with it princess, you're in our country" and "so what? We should kick the fat people out next" etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[seankenny]

I'm just curious to see if you feel you played any part in it. Whatever your reasons, this is the outcome you wanted and helped to produce. The outcome includes not only some political and economic benefits (well, maybe, sometime, you hope) but also lashings of racism. These outcomes were all entirely predictable and indeed predicted. Still, you went ahead with your choice anyhow, and, being an adult, surely you know that choices have consequences?

Played any part in what?

The referendum result?
Yes, I played a 1-in-33551983 part in the result.
Or (I think, someone correct me) a 0.000003% part.

The outcome?
We're three days into an massive event - the consequences of which will take years and years to play out. I'm not confident in your crystal-ball skills at that range.

Oh numerically of course, a tiny part. But you were part of a social movement which - for whatever reason - decided it was acceptable to ally itself with fascists. That doesn't make you a fascist or a racist of course. But it does make you a fellow traveller with the worst parts of British - or really English - society. And of course you chose to follow leaders who espoused the worst sort of anti-intellectualism and were quite happy to trash the reputations of vital institutions in order to reach their goal.

I'm saying if you believe those means justified the ends you wanted, then that's extremely dangerous.

As for crystal ball skills, I'm not claiming anything. We all know it's up in the air. But the outcome I'm talking about here - an outbreak of racism across the country - has already happened.

You can't ever ask difficult questions or ever change political direction in that case.

Well, Atlee and Thatcher are both on record as firmly rejecting referenda for essentially that reason. And they were both responsible for the two biggest political shifts between 1945 and 2015. So your statement turns out to be incorrect.

As for racists always existing, you can encourage and inflame those sentiments, or you can damp down on them as much as possible. The campaign you supported took the former route.

You're right. Change can be pushed through. And nearly all would be glad of Atlee's contribution. Less so Thatcher's of course, who pushed through change against the will of a great many people - who felt their only recourse was to strike.

In your view is Thatcher a shining example of how to enact political change then? Did Thatcher's version of political changes not have profound, some would say highly damaging, consequences to a great many people? (might want to start a whole other thread about that).

You said that without referenda we couldn't have big political changes. I'm simply saying that is incorrect. I'm not making a comment on the quality of those changes - I suspect we agree on that.

But the reason Thatcher's changes went through was because she didn't just capitalise on the political mood of the country. She also did a lot of hard tedious work, knew her brief and didn't stop pushing. That's a big lesson for all sides which seems to have been forgotten.

[tomtom]

I think Bonjoy or JB's earlier point (sorry forgot who) that negatives will be felt immediately and positives will probably take several years to emerge is very salient to the present situation.

So tin hats and cash under the mattress until c.2020 then we can come out of our EuroShelters (tm) and get on with life. Wonder what series of Game of Thrones we'll be on then...

BTW - did anyone see Junkers very droll tweet last night "UK - Iceland 1-2. Winter is coming"

[petejh]

But you were part of a social movement which - for whatever reason - decided it was acceptable to ally itself with fascists. That doesn't make you a fascist or a racist of course. But it does make you a fellow traveller with the worst parts of British - or really English - society. And of course you chose to follow leaders who espoused the worst sort of anti-intellectualism and were quite happy to trash the reputations of vital institutions in order to reach their goal.

I'm saying if you believe those means justified the ends you wanted, then that's extremely dangerous.

Nice logic there Sean. Doesn't leave any room whatsoever for any worldview that differs from your own does it, conveniently. Or at least, any reasonable worldview that doesn't include fascism or racism. Great attitude. Who's being blinkered here?

Who allayed themselves with who? Lets turn it around to say a fascist element allayed themselves to what I feel I voted for - which was a vision of the UK that included the free movement of people and labour, but which wasn't in a political union run from Brussels.

I don't consider it ever acceptable to ally myself with fascists. And I'm not 'following' any leader I can make out. I'm following my own belief in local governance, free trade within certain conditions, and a global outward-looking view.

[stone]

I'm hoping Brexit will improve the situation for everyone in Europe. I think it could. For over 20years, I've thought the EU was a deeply misguided concept. Smaller countries are just as likely to be affluent as larger countries and people in them are no more likely to be involved in wars. The EU is basically an attempt to conglomerate together a bunch of countries to make one larger country. Worse than that, it governs in a way that is profoundly impervious to democratic control. It's a way for technocrats to rule over everyone -and not neccessarily to rule benevolently or wisely either -just look at what has been done to Greece. The EU has unfair trading relationships with developing countries. I find it DEEPLY offensive when people claim voting Leave is Xenophobic.
That said, I was appalled by much of the Leave campaign and upset that people on the Leave side such as Jenny Jones and Gisela Stuart weren't able to stop the worst aspects of the campaign. A lot of the snobbery from the Remain camp also comes across as very ugly to me.

[Johnny Brown]

Here's another thought: as soon as Labour get their act together I'll be very surprised if, like the Lib Dems, they don't pledge remain/ re entry. There's already talk of a left alliance with the SNP. So this has only got legs as long as the Tories can stay in power, which is might be long enough to get through article 50 and two years, might not. Either way, why waste all that effort for something likely to be reversed as soon as the electorate swing the other way. 1.9% is not going to swing a parliament which is mostly opposed. It's not going to happen.

[tomtom]

Interesting to watch this CNN report - some external perspective.



BTW, the wind turbine plant they mention being built at the end - Siemens announced this afternoon they were not going ahead with further investment in Hull...

[slackline]

67%?!?!?!

Can CNN not get basic numbers correct?

Leave : 51.9%
Remain : 48.1%

Or is it poor editing and that he is referring to the number within that region?

[seankenny]

Nice logic there Sean. Doesn't leave any room whatsoever for any worldview that differs from your own does it, conveniently. Or at least, any reasonable worldview that doesn't include fascism or racism. Great attitude. Who's being blinkered here?

Who allayed themselves with who? Lets turn it around to say a fascist element allayed themselves to what I feel I voted for - which was a vision of the UK that included the free movement of people and labour, but which wasn't in a political union run from Brussels.

I don't consider it ever acceptable to ally myself with fascists. And I'm not 'following' any leader I can make out. I'm following my own belief in local governance, free trade within certain conditions, and a global outward-looking view.

It's quite possible to support all those things and not have voted Leave - Warsi turned her back on the campaign for what I believe are the right reasons, even though she supported its overall aims. Had more prominent Leavers been more responsible at an early stage, then maybe it would have been possible to pull back from the shitpile and give people like you - who voted Leave for good reasons - a decent and honourable campaign.

Instead you get what you want, but at a price. Unfortunately most of that price right now is being paid by non-white Britons, or foreigners.

Alas, I'm getting the impression that you don't care that much, but I might have misread your posts.

[Fultonius]

Interesting to watch this CNN report - some external perspective.

BTW, the wind turbine plant they mention being built at the end - Siemens announced this afternoon they were not going ahead with further investment in Hull...

That's a mighty big hole in Hull's foot....   Although, the grauniad said that the Hull plant won't be affected?  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/siemens-freezes-new-uk-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote

[Three Nine]

I'm hoping Brexit will improve the situation for everyone in Europe. I think it could. For over 20years, I've thought the EU was a deeply misguided concept. Smaller countries are just as likely to be affluent as larger countries and people in them are no more likely to be involved in wars. The EU is basically an attempt to conglomerate together a bunch of countries to make one larger country. Worse than that, it governs in a way that is profoundly impervious to democratic control. It's a way for technocrats to rule over everyone -and not neccessarily to rule benevolently or wisely either -just look at what has been done to Greece. The EU has unfair trading relationships with developing countries. I find it DEEPLY offensive when people claim voting Leave is Xenophobic.
That said, I was appalled by much of the Leave campaign and upset that people on the Leave side such as Jenny Jones and Gisela Stuart weren't able to stop the worst aspects of the campaign. A lot of the snobbery from the Remain camp also comes across as very ugly to me.

I didn't know you posted on here Stone!  I do sort of think that now the decision has been made, we ought to be looking forward to making the best of things, rather than bitching about what racist cunts everyone else is.

I think there's much to be said for this approach: https://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/wesley.jpg

[Teaboy]

That's a mighty big hole in Hull's foot....   Although, the grauniad said that the Hull plant won't be affected?  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/siemens-freezes-new-uk-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote

"Juergen Maier, the firm’s UK CEO, said that an existing blueprint to export offshore wind turbine machinery from the Hull hub was now up in the air", not exactly reassuring

[tomtom]

67%?!?!?!

Can CNN not get basic numbers correct?

Leave : 51.9%
Remain : 48.1%

Or is it poor editing and that he is referring to the number within that region?

Its the number in the region. 4-1 in some wards

That's a mighty big hole in Hull's foot....   Although, the grauniad said that the Hull plant won't be affected?  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/siemens-freezes-new-uk-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote

"Juergen Maier, the firm’s UK CEO, said that an existing blueprint to export offshore wind turbine machinery from the Hull hub was now up in the air", not exactly reassuring

Its a fuck off big hole. We (they?) spent years courting Siemens to build there - I've seen the plans, know the Council planning dept.. Theres a big Green Port planned for the South Bank - Dong energy are due (have signed outline agreement?) to go there. Phase 3 would have seen a smelter being built on the North bank - the return of heavy prodcution back to the region. Its 300 jobs at the moment - that with the next phase would have meant 10 000 if you included the supply (and delivery) chain. Cynics in Hull say siemens were just taking whatever grants they could and were then going to piss off - but it was the most significant investment in the area in 10 or more years??

Anyway, spent 5 hours in the car today and been climbing. Not listened to any news, or spent hours banging update on the live web pages - and feel a lot better for it.

Also joined Labour so I can have some say in things (if there is still a party not a Momentum / New Labour splittage) which seemed far more positive than just whining about things (as I had been).

[kac]

Thanks Stone for pretty much summing up my feelings and thanks Pete too. Its ironic and offensive calling people racist and fascist sympathisers because they have made a different decision to yourself on an issue like this.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I'm hoping Brexit will improve the situation for everyone in Europe. I think it could. For over 20years, I've thought the EU was a deeply misguided concept. Smaller countries are just as likely to be affluent as larger countries and people in them are no more likely to be involved in wars. The EU is basically an attempt to conglomerate together a bunch of countries to make one larger country. Worse than that, it governs in a way that is profoundly impervious to democratic control. It's a way for technocrats to rule over everyone -and not neccessarily to rule benevolently or wisely either -just look at what has been done to Greece. The EU has unfair trading relationships with developing countries. I find it DEEPLY offensive when people claim voting Leave is Xenophobic.
That said, I was appalled by much of the Leave campaign and upset that people on the Leave side such as Jenny Jones and Gisela Stuart weren't able to stop the worst aspects of the campaign. A lot of the snobbery from the Remain camp also comes across as very ugly to me.

Good to see you Stone.

I'm a remain, but share your sentiments about the misrepresentation of the views of many of the Brexit voters. It comes across as the sort of polarising of opinion which corrupted much of the political campaigning. I don't see that it does much to support the cause and values of the remain camp, if our response to the Brexit vote is primarily emotional and reactionary, as there will be many who voted to leave, who share much of the sentiment of those who voted to remain.

I don't share the view that to leave, is the best way to arrive at improvements in Europe, but I'd have been hard pressed to provide a full analysis of how to achieve what I was voting for, before the poll, beyond an expression - and hopefully protection - of the values I felt I supported, by voting in the way that I did.

[seankenny]

Thanks Stone for pretty much summing up my feelings and thanks Pete too. Its ironic and offensive calling people racist and fascist sympathisers because they have made a different decision to yourself on an issue like this.

Racist and fascist sympathisers - no.
But what? Probably something closer to enablers.

[jfdm]

I thought the referendum was quite a simple question.
Do you want to remain a member or not.
It seems pretty black and white.
Either all in (remain) or all out (exit).
Since the result all the exiters seem to want is the best of both worlds.
The independence they crave but also the economic benefits of being in the EU.
This is what is so fu*kin annoying.
If this is the case why exit?
I personally haven't been prevented from doing anything in life because/in spite of the EU.
The blame for all the mess lies at the feet of Cameron and his Con-artist party.
He did it to stop Tory infighting, thought it would be plain sailing, the rest is history.
All of it smacks of selfishness, looking out for number one, rather than the greater good.

[Jaspersharpe]

For those who disliked my earlier generalisation, I would like to point out that some of my best friends are drooling morons. So suck it up princesses.

jfdm - I agree. Those non DMs, non racists, non fascists, who chose to vote Leave seem to want to have their cake and eat it without realising that they have just taken a massive shit into the cake they wanted to eat.

It makes zero sense, and any amount of attempting to intellectualise it due to dissatisfaction with the way the EU is run doesn't change that.

If Remain had won then things would actually have changed anyway as a lot of the top EU leaders were already shitting themselves about the fact that the vote was obviously going to be close. Talks had already happened about consequences of a close Remain vote and what it meant for other countries that have deep reservations about the EU. It was already a big deal.

Many of the things that the non DMs wanted would have been more likely to be achieved than they are now that we have to deal with this unholy mess.

And yes, the only reason we had a referendum was for Cameron to try to save his skin from UKIP and the nutjob faction of his party. The wanker.

[jfdm]

intellectualise it

The thing is they can't intellectualise it.
They operate on such a high level that their ideas can't be verbalised.
Over the weekend remainers were told to "suck it up."
But all I have heard since is the bleating exiters saying that things will be ok in 5-10 yrs.
I'm not okay with this joined up thinking.
Everything now is a leap into the unknown, back of fag packet ideas, no freakin clue.

[tomtom]

intellectualise it

The thing is they can't intellectualise it.
They operate on such a high level that their ideas can't be verbalised.
Over the weekend remainers were told to "suck it up."
But all I have heard since is the bleating exiters saying that things will be ok in 5-10 yrs.
I'm not okay with this joined up thinking.
Everything now is a leap into the unknown, back of fag packet ideas, no freakin clue.

There there dear - don't worry your pretty head, it'll all be fine soon...

After all, BoJo and Gove-dawg used to be journalists.

(I am being Very sarcastic...)

[tomtom]

To more seriously answer your previous post jdfm - this is why referenda are rarely used (Cameron has used more than we had previously since WW2) because most questions are far more nuanced than yes or no.. So need a more broad answer that brings in all the knowledge.

Which is why we have governments rather than perpetual referendums about every bloody thing.

[SA Chris]

Its a fuck off big hole. We (they?) spent years courting Siemens to build there - I've seen the plans, know the Council planning dept.. Theres a big Green Port planned for the South Bank - Dong energy are due (have signed outline agreement?) to go there. Phase 3 would have seen a smelter being built on the North bank - the return of heavy prodcution back to the region. Its 300 jobs at the moment - that with the next phase would have meant 10 000 if you included the supply (and delivery) chain. Cynics in Hull say siemens were just taking whatever grants they could and were then going to piss off - but it was the most significant investment in the area in 10 or more years??

Looks like it might be tata TATA too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36634654

Also has anyone read the Mystic Clegg article?

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/

[webbo]

Thanks Stone for pretty much summing up my feelings and thanks Pete too. Its ironic and offensive calling people racist and fascist sympathisers because they have made a different decision to yourself on an issue like this.

Racist and fascist sympathisers - no.
But what? Probably something closer to enablers.

Yet you seem to admire Thatcher and under her watch. We had to form the Anti Nazi league and Rock Against Racism.

[shark]

Sky News reporting that Cornyn has lost no confidence vote by 80%

http://news.sky.com/story/1718507/jeremy-corbyn-loses-vote-of-no-confidence