[petejh]

Oh and GCW what point are you trying to make with your wordless puntering? Are you speechless with indignation at the referendum not going your way, or was it something I said.

[Will Hunt]

I know what you mean, I'm now worrying where my next meals coming from.

Dense, when you trivialise like this it just makes you sound like a fool. Nobody is expecting dear George to personally pop round to their house and take a crisp twenty out of their pocket. But increased cost of borrowing, or falling value of the pound, or rising fuel prices will be bad for businesses, which may lead to lay offs or stagnating wages, which will lead to less money in people's pockets at the end of the month, which means less to spend on getting those gutters fixed, or opting to see what's in the freezer instead of ordering a take-away, or waiting another month to buy that new coat. One by one a million little decisions totting up to a slump.

As the least economically resilient, the poorest will be hit hardest. I noticed this morning on my commute to work that a new food bank has opened up in one of the suburbs I drive through (of course I'm not saying this one has immediately sprung up as a result of the referendum). It's in a nice respectable area, and driving through it I'm struck by how run-of-the-mill average it is. I thought surely food banks were only for sink estates? This place is home to the "ordinary", "decent" people. The very same people who just opted into economic hardship, and said "Yes!" to the inevitable intolerance and strengthening of the far-right that goes with it.

[seankenny]

But to suggest that every single leave voter is an anti-immigration racist is crazy and ignorant. To imply that by voting leave voters have legitimised scumbag racist behavior is equally wrong-headed.

No, I certainly don't believe every single leave voter is a racist. But you've supported a campaign which has legitimised this behaviour - you've played your (small) part. I didn't see many Leave supporters looking at the campaign saying "Oooh, this anti-expert populism and the racist undertones are a real problem". Nah, they went for it and the public lapped it up, and the leave voters have empowered the scum-bag racists in our society. It may be an unforseen or unwanted consequence of what you did, but it's a consequence nevertheless.

[petejh]

It may be. It's also a consequence of terrorist atrocities.  Scumbags react like scumbags, and need to be dealt with consistently.

I didn't lap up any of the bullshit on either side. I formed my views without needing to listen to bile and bullshit, I have no regard for the likes of Farage.

[Will Hunt]

Did you report it to the police, Sean? If not then please do, even if they can't follow up the particular incident I think it's important that it is logged in the statistics. The issue was raised several times in parliament today and the message needs to be pressed home that these incidents have spiked.

It may be. It's also a consequence of terrorist atrocities.  Scumbags react like scumbags, and need to be dealt with consistently.

Dear God, Pete, I think it's you who needs to get a grip.

[petejh]

Why?

[highrepute]

My colleague reports a group of her Spanish friends told to "go home" in a Sheffield pub. Sad times indeed.

Personally I can't remember feeling so aggrieved. I've been reading the mail today in an attempt to find a positive spin on it  but couldn't find one!? Wtf. Anyone read a positive article about this anywhere?

[seankenny]

Did you report it to the police, Sean? If not then please do, even if they can't follow up the particular incident I think it's important that it is logged in the statistics. The issue was raised several times in parliament today and the message needs to be pressed home that these incidents have spiked.

It may be. It's also a consequence of terrorist atrocities.  Scumbags react like scumbags, and need to be dealt with consistently.

Dear God, Pete, I think it's you who needs to get a grip.

For various reasons, no she didn't, but plans to report it to researchers looking at the problem.

Quite why a family outing to Kew gets tarred by racist abuse is due to terrorism... well I'm not sure I see the link there.

[Will Hunt]

Quite why a family outing to Kew gets tarred by racist abuse is due to terrorism... well I'm not sure I see the link there.

What he said. Because you're excusing, at least in part, racist abuse doled out with impunity in broad daylight.

[highrepute]

Found some positives in the sun. No links as their app is shit.

Butchers are selling in pounds and ounces again.

Unemployed man in Boston is hopeful of getting a job in post brexit Britain. Less poles so more jobs init.

Small businesses around UK report being positive about the future. Andy who owns a picture framing business says he does a lot of business in Spain and Italy and he doesn't think that will change.

Let the good times roll.

[ghisino]

[Duma]

thats great

[lagerstarfish]

David Icke is happy

[Duncan campbell]

Found some positives in the sun. No links as their app is shit.

Butchers are selling in pounds and ounces again.

Unemployed man in Boston is hopeful of getting a job in post brexit Britain. Less poles so more jobs init.

Small businesses around UK report being positive about the future. Andy who owns a picture framing business says he does a lot of business in Spain and Italy and he doesn't think that will change.

Let the good times roll.

Phew. was worried for a second there

[petejh]

Did you report it to the police, Sean? If not then please do, even if they can't follow up the particular incident I think it's important that it is logged in the statistics. The issue was raised several times in parliament today and the message needs to be pressed home that these incidents have spiked.

It may be. It's also a consequence of terrorist atrocities.  Scumbags react like scumbags, and need to be dealt with consistently.

Dear God, Pete, I think it's you who needs to get a grip.

..
Quite why a family outing to Kew gets tarred by racist abuse is due to terrorism... well I'm not sure I see the link there.

The point is there are malicious idiotic people who react to major events (referendum result, terror attack, football tournaments...., police shootings etc.) in malicious idiotic ways. That's an unintended consequence of this referendum and while being predictable doesn't mean people should be too afraid to vote for what they believe because of a fear of giving malicious idiots encouragement. I voted leave despite, not because of, a far right-wing narrative as did a lot of others.

[Johnny Brown]

It's early days, but every day that passes without invoking article 50 is a step closer to it never happening. It is becoming clearer by the day that we're in too deep. Breaking up the UK and putting land borders up across Ireland and Britain are too much to contemplate. Our economy is not export based, the net effect will be massively negative. None of the hopes of the leave campaign have any basis in reality. I don't think there'll be a second referendum, I think this one will just be ignored.

[duncan]

Groping for positives from this sorry business...

1. Young people are more enlightened and outward looking than old farts like me, the future looks to be in good hands. The symbolism is still shit and I’ve no doubt that this has emboldened some extremely nasty people. Over the weekend the 36th British MP outed herself and this country still feels a lot more tolerant than it did 30 years ago.

2. The result will succour right-wing Tory Europhobes for decades. As they are dying off (see 1.) this will increasingly be electorial poison.

3. The wider country are starting to recognise Boris as the incompetent bullshitter that many Londoners already know.

4. Gideon and Dave are toast.

5. It’s a wake-up call for the country in general and Labour party in particular to take the concerns of Rotherham (for example) folk more seriously. They are not all drooling morons as Jasper so charmingly put it.

5. When the dust settles the Labour party may have an electable leader (see 5.).

6. It ain’t over. Frantic Brexiter back-pedalling and German pragmatism (who will buy all those beemers?) suggests there will be a fudge of some kind and the real-world changes may be less than currently anticipated. Which would be very British.

7. There is the fainter hope that enough MPs will recognise that the referendum is advisory only and it is their final decision whether or not to pull the trigger. Write to yours right now.

And finally, I'll still be a full EU citizen when I get my Scottish passport.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

It's early days, but every day that passes without invoking article 50 is a step closer to it never happening. It is becoming clearer by the day that we're in too deep. Breaking up the UK and putting land borders up across Ireland and Britain are too much to contemplate. Our economy is not export based, the net effect will be massively negative. None of the hopes of the leave campaign have any basis in reality. I don't think there'll be a second referendum, I think this one will just be ignored.

I suspect you may be right, although there would be an uproar amongst Leave voters, what Dave's so called 'simple in/out vote' has effectively become a de facto vote on the dismantling of the UK. Scotland (and Wales?) leaving and the issues with Ireland are rather more significant that a few extra immigrants. Although a U-turn would make him rather unpopular to say the least, he's resigned already so what the worst that can happen? Today is a crunch day as he's meeting the EU bigwigs, if he doesn't tell them when Article 50 will be invoked I doubt it ever will. Whoever replaces him, invoking it will be a poisoned chalice sat on a grenade with the pin removed.

[Johnny Brown]

He's already said it's a job for his successor. Doesn't seem to be much uproar (from leave voters anyway) about the rest of the leave campaigns promises being broken, so I'm sure they'll get over this.

[Oldmanmatt]

It's early days, but every day that passes without invoking article 50 is a step closer to it never happening. It is becoming clearer by the day that we're in too deep. Breaking up the UK and putting land borders up across Ireland and Britain are too much to contemplate. Our economy is not export based, the net effect will be massively negative. None of the hopes of the leave campaign have any basis in reality. I don't think there'll be a second referendum, I think this one will just be ignored.

So so on that. I think it will be invoked, but what will result is a negotiated status quo (in many respects) and a new look EU with a different name. And that would be a great outcome and almost worth the pain.

Groping for positives from this sorry business...

1. Young people are more enlightened and outward looking than old farts like me, the future looks to be in good hands. The symbolism is still shit and I’ve no doubt that this has emboldened some extremely nasty people. Over the weekend the 36th British MP outed herself and this country still feels a lot more tolerant than it did 30 years ago.

2. The result will succour right-wing Tory Europhobes for decades. As they are dying off (see 1.) this will increasingly be electorial poison.

3. The wider country are starting to recognise Boris as the incompetent bullshitter that many Londoners already know.

4. Gideon and Dave are toast.

5. It’s a wake-up call for the country in general and Labour party in particular to take the concerns of Rotherham (for example) folk more seriously. They are not all drooling morons as Jasper so charmingly put it.

5. When the dust settles the Labour party may have an electable leader (see 5.).

6. It ain’t over. Frantic Brexiter back-pedalling and German pragmatism (who will buy all those beemers?) suggests there will be a fudge of some kind and the real-world changes may be less than currently anticipated. Which would be very British.

7. There is the fainter hope that enough MPs will recognise that the referendum is advisory only and it is their final decision whether or not to pull the trigger. Write to yours right now.

And finally, I'll still be a full EU citizen when I get my Scottish passport.

My biggest desire is that freedom of movement be retained. I think the right wing argument against it is racist bullshit and the left wing "it just lets the rich have cheap labour, bleeds nations of their human assets and devalues the workers here" is equally crap.

On the latter, that kind of migration is something that occurs in the first flush after a "poor" nation is admitted to the club. Here, once, it was all (for instance) Polish labourers; now there's a lot of Doctors, Dentists, Nurses. Just as once, before that, it was Jamaican bus drivers or South Asian street sweepers; some of whom's offspring now sit in Parliament. We were never dragged down to Jamaican or Indian or any other level of third world labour rates and the rich really don't have hoards of oppressed servants (there are plenty of fawning shits, perfectly willing to hang on coat tails for dropped crumbs and coming from a poor country is not a prerequisite).
I actually concede some of Pete's faceless Eurocrat points, though I think that stems more from our (all of us) indifference and lack of participation and really, it just highlights all the negatives of democracy (where's that perfect, just, AI to rule us all with mechanical efficiency and logic?) (JK Dense, JK).

The worst aspect of all this is the total lack of plan. Even the most articulate Leavers cannot come up with anything better than "no more faceless bureaucrats!" or/and "It'll all be fine, just a little hiccup on the way!"  without anything more concrete.

It's pretty clear that that most Leavers are not going to get what they thought they were voting for, because (sorry Pete, Dense) it's also pretty clear that the main objection and Out vote reasoning was immigration based.
The only clear message from the senior Leave leaders is that any future deal is going to include a very similar looking freedom of movement policy to the one we see now. And every expert of every stripe, is convinced we won't get access to the single market without adopting EU law, at least to the extent that Norway does (for example).

Looking for good points, things to hope for, if you like:

Maybe the hardline federalists and ideologues that have bullied the union into this corner, rushed the expansion and alienated the population for the sake of their "perfect world" view; have had their day.
Perhaps something can be salvaged, something better.

Not convinced that that couldn't have been better and less painfully achieved, within the existing Union; if only our politicians could have been better and the people informed and  engaged.


With the "If my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle" proviso.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Oldmanmatt]

Also, this twat is pissed off and going to do his best to fuck up any future deal out of pure shortsighted hatred.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717728/live-farage-jeered-as-he-defends-brexit


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[seankenny]

The point is there are malicious idiotic people who react to major events (referendum result, terror attack, football tournaments...., police shootings etc.) in malicious idiotic ways. That's an unintended consequence of this referendum and while being predictable doesn't mean people should be too afraid to vote for what they believe because of a fear of giving malicious idiots encouragement. I voted leave despite, not because of, a far right-wing narrative as did a lot of others.

Last year 30 people were shot dead in Tunisia. There was the slaughter in Paris. Going back futher, we've had 7/7, attempted plane hijackings, and the small matter of the Iraq war. It's not exactly been a bed of roses but we haven't had British people with the wrong skin colour being abused in the streets like this before.

What's brought this about is a malicious campaign which hasn't just played the race card, it's held a full hand of race cards and picked up a few from the deck too.

If your actions will give idiots encouragement then you bear some of the responsibility - I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

I'm not sure what "leaving in spite of a far-right narrative" actually means, but what it seems to have led to in practice is a rise in far-right behavious. So yeah, that whole socialist better Britain leave thing, that was a bit o' the old bullshit wasn't it?

[Oldmanmatt]

The point is there are malicious idiotic people who react to major events (referendum result, terror attack, football tournaments...., police shootings etc.) in malicious idiotic ways. That's an unintended consequence of this referendum and while being predictable doesn't mean people should be too afraid to vote for what they believe because of a fear of giving malicious idiots encouragement. I voted leave despite, not because of, a far right-wing narrative as did a lot of others.

Last year 30 people were shot dead in Tunisia. There was the slaughter in Paris. Going back futher, we've had 7/7, attempted plane hijackings, and the small matter of the Iraq war. It's not exactly been a bed of roses but we haven't had British people with the wrong skin colour being abused in the streets like this before.

What's brought this about is a malicious campaign which hasn't just played the race card, it's held a full hand of race cards and picked up a few from the deck too.

If your actions will give idiots encouragement then you bear some of the responsibility - I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

I'm not sure what "leaving in spite of a far-right narrative" actually means, but what it seems to have led to in practice is a rise in far-right behavious. So yeah, that whole socialist better Britain leave thing, that was a bit o' the old bullshit wasn't it?

And stoked further today by Empire building fear mongers, looking for self justification:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683826/Brexit-Britain-surge-migrant-vessels-crossing-channel-EU-vote


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hstmoore]

Which was accompanied by a list of possible woes and a "how will Brexit hit your wallet" article. Which caused a shit storm in their comments online as disgruntled Sun readers howled that they hadn't been told this before the referendum.

[/quote]

I suspect you may be right, although there would be an uproar amongst Leave voters [if article 50 was not invoked and their vote was seemingly ignored]

After seeing a lot of 'I voted for Brexit, but now wish I hadn't', perhaps this article by the Sun is the beginning of a campaign (by the media-government) to get people (who voted for brexit) to believe that the consequences of brexit are shit, and so when westminster does not invoke article 50, and in effect ignores Brexiteer's vote, there will not be "uproar amongst Leave voters"

[SA Chris]

Also, this twat is pissed off and going to do his best to fuck up any future deal out of pure shortsighted hatred.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717728/live-farage-jeered-as-he-defends-brexit

At the bottom of that page;

BREAKING: German Foreign Ministry spokesman: Some of those who want Brexit in the UK do not seem to have a clear plan.

I think some is a tad optimistic.