[butters]

JR - like Jasper there is nothing there that I can really disagree with and it echoes what I think.

The Labour party now have a real chance at taking the middle ground here - I have a lot of time for Jeremy Corbyn and admire his principles hugely (and I think that those principles are relevant in current times) but he is, as TomTom put it*:

... (a) unelectable as PM and (b) a bad leader.

* I have deliberately changed the order around BTW as it reflects the overall situation and the urgency of said situation better IMO

Should Labour get its shit together and actually elect someone who is not a total Blairite and who can manage to steer the rest of the Labour MP's in roughly the same political direction then they have a chance to campaign on a pro Europe ticket and steal said middle ground from the Conservatives.

Anyway if anything good has come of the complete clusterfuck of the last couple of days it is that Boris and Gove have had their teeth pulled for the next few years at least. For that we can be thankful at least.

[seankenny]

Here's a lovely thing.

My better half is South Asian. She was out at Kew Gardens today with her parents where she got called a "dirty Paki". She's never received any racial abuse in London in the 12 years we've been together. Is this a co-incidence? Absolutely not - I'm hearing that since the vote this is happening to all sorts of brown and black people around the country.

So, thanks, Leave campaigns which drew the poison to the surface and made casual racism acceptable again. If you're a Leaver, this is the kind of thing you supported. Maybe not explicity, but implicitly. I'm not saying you're racists, but you supported and empowered some pretty dark forces. I'm afraid to say this is partly your responsibility.

Don't like that? Tough shit.

[LB1782]

I expected racist incidents no matter who won: whether, as now, triumphalist or in 'revenge'.
Saying that, letting bigots entertain the belief that they have been legitimised cannot be a good thing.

[seankenny]

Nah, a leave vote is much much better if you're a racist - you start to believe you're in the vanguard of something. All those people would do what you do, if they had the guts. But you've got the guts, you'll say what they're thinking.

If you reckon this is barmy, well it's no barmier than thinking Boris Johnson is going to make working at Poundland tolerable. Which clearly a lot of people believed.

And once a few people are hurling racist abuse, then it empowers more.

[Oldmanmatt]

Here's a lovely thing.

My better half is South Asian. She was out at Kew Gardens today with her parents where she got called a "dirty Paki". She's never received any racial abuse in London in the 12 years we've been together. Is this a co-incidence? Absolutely not - I'm hearing that since the vote this is happening to all sorts of brown and black people around the country.

So, thanks, Leave campaigns which drew the poison to the surface and made casual racism acceptable again. If you're a Leaver, this is the kind of thing you supported. Maybe not explicity, but implicitly. I'm not saying you're racists, but you supported and empowered some pretty dark forces. I'm afraid to say this is partly your responsibility.

Don't like that? Tough shit.

You are not alone. It's started here too.
My son is called Alexandru, but it will be plain Alex for a while.



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[finbarrr]

Corbyn is [...] (b) unelectable as PM.

just like no one in their right mind would vote for a brexit?

[Oldmanmatt]

You know that Winnie the Poo meme doing the rounds?

Friend of a friend re-wrote it:



"How did you vote?" said Pooh.

"Leave," said Piglet.

"I voted remain," said Pooh.

"Are we still friends?" said Piglet.

"Well to be honest, I'm not really sure" said Pooh, uncharacteristically thoughtfully. "It's a complex issue and not really one that can be reduced to seven lines of text for the purposes of a rather twee meme.

"On the one hand, a belief in unity, that we're stronger together, and that when we work as a team we both benefit, was one of the main reasons why I voted as I did.

"On the other hand, whilst I appreciate that, just as I did, you chose your vote based on what you thought was for the best, you have precipitated a huge financial collapse, destabilised my country, and threatened the future of my children, and it's hard for me to forget that, especially within a matter of hours.

"It's entirely possible that we're going to end up with a very much depleted Sixty Acre Wood, and while you might have no issue with the other animals who live here, you sided with those who did. As of yesterday, Kanga's had to go into hiding, Rabbit's marching to Christopher Robin's house demanding her immediate repatriation, and Tigger's had donkey shit shoved through his letterbox. While you might not have wanted that, you legitimised it, and decided that other animals' lives and security were collateral damage.

"It's true that you're still the small, massively overmarketed stuffed animal that you were before, but realistically I've seen another side of you that I hadn't before and it's going to take me some time to process that.

"And whenever I tried to discuss this with you beforehand, you either accused me of scaremongering or insisted on ignoring me and showing me pictures of cats instead.

"So rather than pressing me for assurances I'm in no position to make right now, I'd appreciate it if you could give me some space and allow me to get off my face on honey and grieve the future that I thought I had, which has been destroyed in the favour of the one that you've dragged me into.

"And if you don't, I'll post you to Cameron. All right?"


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[a dense loner]

Yeh that's one of the best things I've ever read. So deep

[tomtom]

Corbyn is [...] (b) unelectable as PM.

just like no one in their right mind would vote for a brexit?

Plenty of people who are sound of mind voted for both/either etc...

He is unelectable as PM.

One of my staunch Corbynite colleagues tweeted a couple of hours ago 'I voted for a wildcat, but we've got a stranded whale'.

[Will Hunt]

Corbyn is [...] (b) unelectable as PM.

just like no one in their right mind would vote for a brexit?

He's deeply unelectable. Look at how Labour's core heartland voted. The party is weak and will be until they put someone in post who can unite them. It's been a fun experiment but he is not a pragmatic choice.

[dave]

It's a sad reflection of the calibre of our postwar leaders that someone who doesn't just say whatever people want to hear and dish out glib soundbites, i.e. someone with a level of integrity, is seen as a liability. We are now accustomed to expecting a "leader" to be someone who makes bold promises that they know they can't fulfil, someone who is all bluster, someone who shouts down opponents and doesn't compromise. To that end Thatcher was a great leader, Blair was a great leader. The commons is full of cunts like that.

People always complain that all senior politicians are just shallow insincere career-minded ladder climbers who don't actually have any principles or give a shit about real people. And now we've got someone who isn't as a leader and we don't like it because he's not a bit of a twat, because we've become accustomed to leaders being twats who will let us pretend things are going to be amazing before letting us down a few years later.You've very unlikely to get someone who's got the integrity of Corbyn and also is say an inspirational speaker and figurehead, not going to happen they are one in ten million, once in a generation.

[Andy B]

Wot he said

[jfdm]

I'm totally fucking sick of Corbyns aggressive fan club saying every attack against him is by the Blairite agenda-ists.... I don't mind his views - agree with many of them. But he's proved himself an inept and rubbish leader. Fuck - he makes Ed Milliband look like Bill Clinton!

Tom, no need to get tetchy, I am not part of the fan club.
But the quote was was from a former ambassador, probably not a paid up member of corby's club.
With this on the horizon it will be interesting how things pan out.
You are probably right, they think corby's shit and the fall out today is because of this.
Or maybe the ambassador has a point, something needs to be done to get TB a sympathetic hearing. A bit left field but stranger things have happened.

[tomtom]

Not sure what your point is dave? - you can be a great person, wonderfully principled, well respected - but still rubbish at leading. That is managing and directing one of the largest party's in the country.

Fine. Do somethings your own way Jezza, but mooching about pride eschewing the tv shows the day after the out vote - when you are supposed to be leading - figure heading the opposition? Ffs c'mon dave he's been so lame in the last few weeks.

Would you want Jezza as your boss? Or head of company/organisation you work for? He'd be a nightmare....

What's worst is that he's clinging on now... Give up man... Go out with some dignity...

[slackline]

Will article 50 ever be triggered?

[butters]

It's a sad reflection of the calibre of our postwar leaders that someone who doesn't just say whatever people want to hear and dish out glib soundbites, i.e. someone with a level of integrity, is seen as a liability. We are now accustomed to expecting a "leader" to be someone who makes bold promises that they know they can't fulfil, someone who is all bluster, someone who shouts down opponents and doesn't compromise. To that end Thatcher was a great leader, Blair was a great leader. The commons is full of cunts like that.

People always complain that all senior politicians are just shallow insincere career-minded ladder climbers who don't actually have any principles or give a shit about real people. And now we've got someone who isn't as a leader and we don't like it because he's not a bit of a twat, because we've become accustomed to leaders being twats who will let us pretend things are going to be amazing before letting us down a few years later.You've very unlikely to get someone who's got the integrity of Corbyn and also is say an inspirational speaker and figurehead, not going to happen they are one in ten million, once in a generation.

For the record I don't disagree with anything you have written Dave.

When Corbyn was elected I fervently hoped that we had someone in the opposition who could galvanise the people who have fallen away from engaging in politics over the last two decades or so and actually get them to participate again (I am included myself in the above). Yes we need someone who can do this but Corbyn was always a long bet as opposition leader and given the current debacle we find ourselves in we don't have the time for him to get his party on side and pulling in the same direction assuming that was ever a realistic possibility in the first instance. He may well fulfil half of Roosevelt's maxim in that he speaks softly but he isn't someone who I can ever see wielding a big stick (sacking Hilary Benn last night may be construed as wielding the big stick but it isn't looking that successful at the minute).

[Oldmanmatt]

Yeh that's one of the best things I've ever read. So deep

Yeah, you're right.

Try this one.

Someone called Boris wrote it:

"In his first words since accepting the result of the EU referendum on Friday, Mr Johnson wrote that "the only change" would be to free the UK from the EU's "extraordinary and opaque" law, which "will not come in any great rush".
'Rights fully protected'
His column said: "I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be.
"There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.
"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.
"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."
"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

As the editor of the paper it was printed in said "So, all we've really done is vote ourselves out of our special circumstances and any chance to influence future direction".




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[BrutusTheBear]

So say you get rid of Corbyn...  You replace him with whom?
He is at least opposition in that what he represents is opposed to the government and the establishment.  I find it incredibly sad that people only view 'electability' in a certain way.  So in order to achieve power you compromise your values and end up offering more of the same.  More of the same is not opposition, it is resignation, to the fact that in order to be elected and have power you must be in the pocket of the establishment. Nothing changes.  Didn't Thatcher say something like 'Tony Blair was my greatest achievement'..

Besides the current ructions have nothing to do with leadership or electability.  The knives are out because in a fortnight the Chilcot report is released and the last thing 'they' want is Corbyn at the helm when it drops.

[Jaspersharpe]

It's a sad reflection of the calibre of our postwar leaders that someone who doesn't just say whatever people want to hear and dish out glib soundbites, i.e. someone with a level of integrity, is seen as a liability. We are now accustomed to expecting a "leader" to be someone who makes bold promises that they know they can't fulfil, someone who is all bluster, someone who shouts down opponents and doesn't compromise. To that end Thatcher was a great leader, Blair was a great leader. The commons is full of cunts like that.

People always complain that all senior politicians are just shallow insincere career-minded ladder climbers who don't actually have any principles or give a shit about real people. And now we've got someone who isn't as a leader and we don't like it because he's not a bit of a twat, because we've become accustomed to leaders being twats who will let us pretend things are going to be amazing before letting us down a few years later.You've very unlikely to get someone who's got the integrity of Corbyn and also is say an inspirational speaker and figurehead, not going to happen they are one in ten million, once in a generation.

It's all true dave. But you're missing the point that a massive percentage of the electorate are drooling morons. We need a leader of the opposition that the drooling crew will vote for. And it's not Jeremy. It's sad but it's true.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeh that's one of the best things I've ever read. So deep

You've no idea what you actually voted for though have you? Or do you have a plan for Boris and Gove? They don't.

[seankenny]

Yeh that's one of the best things I've ever read. So deep

You've no idea what you actually voted for though have you? Or do you have a plan for Boris and Gove? They don't.

This article from the Telegraph is worth a read. It outlines what our brave Leavers have voted for.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/

[a dense loner]

No I've no idea I'm thick as fuck, all the clever tolerant people voted for the people with the plan.

[Jaspersharpe]

No I've no idea I'm thick as fuck, all the clever tolerant people voted for the people with the plan.

Irony eats itself.

[tregiffian]

The drooling morons;that would be the plumbers, builders and labourers, factory workers the Rock and Ice in fact.

[TheTwig]

Am i REALLY the only one that thinks the whole 'corbyn is unelectable' thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy? Even before he was elected it was repeated ad-nauseam. It's actually remarkable he has done as well as he has, considering that in the 10 years or so I've been interested in politics (since I was 17 then) I've never seen a single person as villified by the media and 'establishment' as him. Has it occured to anyone that without the never-ending sniping from the right-wing of the Labour party that he would be more 'electable' ?

As for the idea that someone will replace him, I just don't think it is possible. Corbyn and his lot have legal advice saying that the incumbent does not have to be nominated by MP's to be on the ballot. Essentially, MP's can challenge all they like but he will just be re-elected by the rank-and-file, with probably an even larger mandate by the people who are becoming increasingly sick of these political games. I've never even heard of half of these rebelling shadow cabinet MP's. They are nobodies who will quickly find themselves being de-selected when Momentum decides enough is enough and sharpens the knives. I for one can't wait for a bloodbath, it's been long overdue.