[petejh]

2. Staying in gives us bargaining power in the world market.

The UK exports the square root of fuck all these days. Having access to other EU exporters allows us more bargaining power on the world market than we would have alone

Given that 78% of our GDP is in "Service industries", the majority of that are "Financial services" and we run at a trade deficit, this is probably an understatement.

Oh, and for anyone that might be concerned about how the EU has decimated our Agricultural industry. According to the ONS, it's little changed in relative value to GDP since joining at a whopping 0.3% GDP.
I mentioned that because it has been much mentioned by Brexit minded friends of mine (who seem to deem themselves "rural" despite mainly commuting from Devon villages to a desk in the nearest city).


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That tiny figure of course encompasses a large population of agricultural workers who exist on low wages. They don't add great value to the countries GDP compared to 'high value' workers in our beloved financial services. So what exactly are we saying here? That agricultural workers are of no interest us when it comes to debating about our place in Europe because they add fuck-all value to the GDP figure?
And investment bankers should be cherished and applauded as the beating heart of our country?

A lot of people on here are happy to change their tune to fit the dance aren't they.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not at all sure farmers would be worse off out. They get money for nothing currently under CAP.

[highrepute]

So Remainers, passing on the queen's supposed question to you all: give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of the EU.

1.Immigration is a significant issue is the world at the moment. It's never been easier to move around and displacement due to conflict is at it's highest; because of this many developed countries are seeing more and more immigration. Cross boarder cooperation is needed to help tackle these issues.

2. Pressure on public services. Britain is changing. There's more people living here who don't work, disproportionately use public services (NHS, social care, buses, trains etc) and get a publicly paid for pension. At the same time birth rates are down. Without a large number of young healthy working age people coming into the country public funds are going to suffer.

3. Control. Not long ago the UK kept having to get involved in wars between European countries. It were right annoying and trading with countries that wanted to invade us was not possible. We managed to stop the warring a while ago now but lots of the countries were still ineffective trading partners (poor or communist or both). Through the EU framework we've successfully impressed our form of law, trading, standards, government, politics, economy, the list goes on... onto 25 other countries (i'm not counting France and Germany as they're in on it with us) to effectively create an ideal environment for us to sell our wares (mainly financial services these days). I'd like to retain control over Europe so we can carry on effectively dominating it.

[Fultonius]

That tiny figure of course encompasses a large population of agricultural workers who exist on low wages. They don't add great value to the countries GDP compared to 'high value' workers in our beloved financial services. So what exactly are we saying here? That agricultural workers are of no interest us when it comes to debating about our place in Europe because they add fuck-all value to the GDP figure?
And investment bankers should be cherished and applauded as the beating heart of our country?

A lot of people on here are happy to change their tune to fit the dance aren't they.

I don't see how someone saying that agriculture hasn't declined much  (which is apparently a claim of the Leave brigade?) and that Financial Services make sup 78% suddenly makes everyone banker loving, anti-agriculturalists? 

P.S. The three reasons I gave were not my three main reasons...just the three that I thought might resonate with potential leave voters.

Highrepute -  clever what you did there. I like it. 

[tomtom]

So Remainers, passing on the queen's supposed question to you all: give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of the EU.

1. Having our human rights, and fundamentals of many laws linked to the EU. They are overwhelmingly sensible, reasonable and aligned with my views. This stops some batshit Trump/Boris etc.. government wading in and introducing capital punishment, public flogging etc.. Furthermore, having this working across the whole EU ensures a political security - no wars between nations, and no worrying when wandering around other EU countries about being flogged for spitting or dropping chewing gum (looking at you Singapore...) for example... we forget how much we take all of this for granted.

2. In a world that is increasingly made up of LARGE alliances, global corporations, BIG thinking - it is important for us to be part of a big organisation, with big bargaining chips and a big market - and market clout. Without the EU we would be niche... We'd be like a cornershop trying to exist in the Trafford Centre.

3. Immigration. As highrepute said, an influx of young, working people is vital to prop up the demographic of our ageing population. We're not making enough children, so there will not be enough people working, paying taxes, paying into pension funds to provide for those retired or wanting to retire. 60 million population, 300k immigration last year - thats 0.5% growth... growth that we need. Further to this, we have to look at ourselves as a country. Are we narrow minded, raise the drawbridge, don't let them in - or willing to help others? to expand our outlook? to enhance our culture and multiculturalism. I regularly recruit PhD students and staff from across Europe - there are no barriers, no problems. I have tried to recruit from outside of the EU - the visa restrictions (and cost) and hoops we have to jump through to do this make it prohibitive, so often we just don't bother. In my field - there are no enough people in the UK capable of doing what I need - so we need a larger pool. Poor access to your doctor, to housing, to schooling etc.. thats not due to immigration, its due to poor planning by the government and a lack of spending (Doctor & NHS stuff is largely down to the restructuring and now piss poor relationship the medical profession have with the govt).

[tomtom]

That tiny figure of course encompasses a large population of agricultural workers who exist on low wages. They don't add great value to the countries GDP compared to 'high value' workers in our beloved financial services. So what exactly are we saying here? That agricultural workers are of no interest us when it comes to debating about our place in Europe because they add fuck-all value to the GDP figure?
And investment bankers should be cherished and applauded as the beating heart of our country?

Make up your own mind Pete (as I'm sure you would anyway)

From wikipedia: "Agriculture in the United Kingdom uses 69% of the country's land area, employs 1.5% of its workforce (476,000 people) and contributes 0.62% of its gross value added (£9.9 billion)."

To put this in perspective - as a nation we have more Estate Agents (not bankers - but certainly a service industry).. From the daily mail in 2013 (sorry people) "The number of estate agents has soared to a record high with one in four jobs created in the past year in the property sector, according to official figures. According to the Office for National Statistics, the number of jobs in the sector rose to 562,000 in the second quarter of the year, exceeding the 2008 peak and the most since its records began in the late 1970s."

 

[a dense loner]

TTT I don't really understand your little rant about put your money where your mouth is and bet a few hundred quid and post a screenshot. Wtf are you on about? I didn't know you needed to bet on something? News to me that. Here's what I've been saying all along, I've voted out you vote how you want. I'm not here or interested in trying to change a remain voters mind. Get a mind of your own. I've voted out I've already said that. I think, very strongly, that we'll remain by quite a margin but within 5-10 yrs the eu will implode. So what's just happened there? Man who has mind of his own doesn't want to be here yet thinks we'll remain due to others voting with different ideas having the bigger turn out yet I'm supposed to bet that my vote will win? Bizarre.

I wasn't really suggesting anything about bs numbers re Johnny, what I have been intimating is that if we do leave we won't really die very quickly on our own on a little island will we? I'm sure we've made some decisions for ourselves some time in the past.

[a dense loner]

And tt this is where the problem stems from, when the middle class collective of Ukb are talking about immigration and how it's needed, the people that are pissed off and the papers that are scare mongering aren't talking about this kind of immigrant. I don't think they're talking about the one that comes to work here.

[tomtom]

And tt this is where the problem stems from, when the middle class collective of Ukb are talking about immigration and how it's needed, the people that are pissed off and the papers that are scare mongering aren't talking about this kind of immigrant. I don't think they're talking about the one that comes to work here.

What type of immigrant is this Dense? If its about those now working here then... (and bear in mind this contains not only those not working but those claiming in work benefits too..)

"DWP statistics show that as of February 2015, just over 5 million people were claiming welfare benefits; of those, about 370,000 (7.2 per cent of the total claiming benefits) were non-UK nationals (at the time that they registered for a National Insurance number; and of those, only 114,000 (2.2 percent of the total claiming benefits) were EU nationals.  Since those born abroad make up 16 percent of the working age population, and those born in the EU make up about 6 percent, it can be seen that migrants of both types are considerably less likely to claim out-of-work benefits."

So, despite the years of "relentless" EU immigration into the UK, of the 3 million EU immigrants in the UK, 114 000 were claiming benefit. It seems here that the real issue is with non EU immigrants - over who we have total control and could impose whatever even stricter rules on their entry than we do now....

The whole immigration issue is vile, and cunts like Farage play on peoples concerns. The arguments made against immigration are carbon copies of made against immigrant Indians, Pakistanis, West Indians etc... in the 60's and 70's. "They'll steal our jobs and houses". The only difference is now those 'blamed' are Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Lithuanian etc..

As John Barnes wrote today (a really good article btw)



"I hadn’t even felt that strongly about it previously – that’s why I hadn’t made it public knowledge that I was supporting remain. I’m a normal person, a layman, so when they’re talking about the economic arguments on either side it’s hard to follow. When 90% of analysts are saying we’re better off in, but the other side say that isn’t true, it’s hard to be sure what to believe. So my reasons for supporting remain are probably different from those of many others: immigration. And I don’t believe this is an issue that the leave campaign should be based on.

Leave is preying on people’s fears, telling the same story we’ve heard over the years about black people from Africa and the Caribbean coming to steal our jobs. Now we hear the same thing about Poles. If leave wanted to say that companies are paying migrants less than British workers, and so allowing them to take our jobs, then it should be looking at raising the minimum wage – not stopping migrants entering the country. The problem has nothing to do with the Polish workers – it is an issue about our labour laws. Yet leave maintains its focus on immigration."

and later on in the arcticle

"And when politicians talk about welcoming different, more skilled immigrants – who are they talking about anyway? If there were thousands of blond-haired, blue-eyed Americans landing at Dover, seeking refuge, I think many of us would be straight down there to help. So many groups of people, whether they be from Africa or the Middle East, have been demonised and dehumanised because they don’t look like us. I’m not accusing anyone of being racist. I’m black, I was born in Jamaica, but this affects me too. I know I would feel more empathy with that boat of white American refugees than I do with the thousands fleeing Syria. It’s because of what we have all been told and the environment that we live in. I don’t look like a white American any more than I do a Syrian – but I was brought up in a society that has taught me to empathise more with them."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/22/john-barnes-gove-says-voting-leave-wrong

[a dense loner]

Hopefully after tomorrow people will be able to stop cut n pasting or linking from other stuff. That's been one of my dreams for a while, oh and people will stop quoting the person above. It's the little things really

[A Jooser]

3. Immigration... an influx of young, working people is vital to prop up the demographic of our ageing population... we have to look at ourselves as a country...

...And what about the countries these young, working people come from?

Jacek Symanski: "3 million people left Poland looking for a job abroad trying to escape poverty and unemployment. In Poland we've got 400,000 so-called Euro-orphans, children whose parents left Poland looking for a job... these are the perfect conditions to grow fascism."


'As Poland loses its doctors and builders, 'Euro-orphans' are left at home to suffer'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/15/euro-orphans-fastest-shrinking-town-poland-radom

The problem with the European Union may well be that the rich countries grow richer at the expense of the poorer ones.

I have no intention to vote tomorrow, but it seems to me there is a strong left-wing case for a leave vote articulated by the 'Lexit' campaign.

I have no strong feelings on immigration, but the arguments that the EU is an anti-democratic organisation that serves the capitalist interests of the neo-liberal corporate elites is the most compelling for me.

When the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Brown, Blair, the IMF, etc, run a Remain campaign bankrolled by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc, one has to ask oneself whose interests are being served.

[Stu Littlefair]

Dense, I'm confused.

If you've already voted, have no interest in changing someone else's mind, or in reading the arguments put forward on either side then WTF are you doing on this thread, other than sticking your oar in for your own onanistic amusement?


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[a dense loner]

What am I doing on this thread? I'm writing on an Internet forum. What are u on about? U can only post on something if u want to change someones mind? People are writing stuff on here as fact and their "argument" makes no sense to me ie we have better standards but we couldn't write them ourselves, to take one out of many. Everything that has been posted as reasons we can't/shouldn't leave I'm quite sure we could do on our own.

[Oldmanmatt]

2. Staying in gives us bargaining power in the world market.

The UK exports the square root of fuck all these days. Having access to other EU exporters allows us more bargaining power on the world market than we would have alone

Given that 78% of our GDP is in "Service industries", the majority of that are "Financial services" and we run at a trade deficit, this is probably an understatement.

Oh, and for anyone that might be concerned about how the EU has decimated our Agricultural industry. According to the ONS, it's little changed in relative value to GDP since joining at a whopping 0.3% GDP.
I mentioned that because it has been much mentioned by Brexit minded friends of mine (who seem to deem themselves "rural" despite mainly commuting from Devon villages to a desk in the nearest city).


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That tiny figure of course encompasses a large population of agricultural workers who exist on low wages. They don't add great value to the countries GDP compared to 'high value' workers in our beloved financial services. So what exactly are we saying here? That agricultural workers are of no interest us when it comes to debating about our place in Europe because they add fuck-all value to the GDP figure?
And investment bankers should be cherished and applauded as the beating heart of our country?

A lot of people on here are happy to change their tune to fit the dance aren't they.

God no.

Not my point at all. The relative GDP of Agriculture is unchanged as a result of joining the EU. My point was that it has not been decimated at all, in fact, it must have grown at the same rate as the rest of the economy. That people have lost their livelihoods within that sector has (I would suggest) far more to do with increased efficiency/automation/technology; than EU regulation (and similar shifts can be seen within the sector globally).

I certainly don't value the financial sector (pun intended), my point there was that extracting the "service industries" from our total GDP gives a better picture of the relative value/size of our production/export base. It isn't large.
And, the financial sector (love them or loath them) are the corner stone of our economy , but also the most at risk in Brexit. The easiest to pick up and shift wholesale too, should they so wish, if things get difficult for them to trade into Europe.

I have a good friend who is a Dairy farmer, she's for Remain. Her reasoning she hasn't shared, however she has made it clear that :
EU = good.
Supermarkets = F&£#*~g Devils seamen cupcakes, corporate tossers.

So, possibly because of my Devonian location, a great deal of the propaganda that has been shoved through my door, has centred around the EU's decimation of the UK's Agricultural industry. So I looked it up and couldn't find the decimation (at least not in terms of the industries value).
Also, given the relatively small value in GDP terms, why should we risk the rest of the economy for this (well hidden) decimation?




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[Stu Littlefair]

What am I on about?

You said: "I've voted out, you vote how you want".

So you're not on this thread to guide how you vote.

You said:"I'm not here or interested in trying to change a remain voters mind"

So you're not here to press a case.

You said: "Hopefully after tomorrow people will be able to stop cut n pasting or linking from other stuff"

So you're not interested in reading arguments for either side.

The only other reasons I can think of for posting are:

1) you're disingenuous and would like to change minds

2) you just enjoy arguing.




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[a dense loner]

I think it's you that enjoys being argumentative, you've been telling people how it is since you climbed 9a

[Stu Littlefair]

You're right there. I love it.


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[Oldmanmatt]

What am I on about?

You said: "I've voted out, you vote how you want".

So you're not on this thread to guide how you vote.

You said:"I'm not here or interested in trying to change a remain voters mind"

So you're not here to press a case.

You said: "Hopefully after tomorrow people will be able to stop cut n pasting or linking from other stuff"

So you're not interested in reading arguments for either side.

The only other reasons I can think of for posting are:

1) you're disingenuous and would like to change minds

2) you just enjoy arguing.




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You're starting to sound/write like me.

Please seek medical attention immediately (or Mumra will be round to give you a pasting).

Both you and Dense have a point. Though, as to whether Dense cares about what other people think, let the evidence speak for it's self...

I genuinely just like debating. I suspect he's the same.


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[Stu Littlefair]

I suspect so too. Hence "onanistic amusement", which is a more insulting way of saying the same thing.

Dense is a dear, but if he's just here for an argument it winds me up when he whines about people supporting their view with links. I'm petty that way.

Dense: to address your substantive point - did people actually suggest "we have better standards but we couldn't write them themselves"? I though JB and others point was that we could have great standards if we wrote them ourselves, but we couldn't impose them on the French?


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[petejh]

Yeah but Stu during your sessions attempting your 9a did you get 8 quality redpoints?

If we left the EU you would, that's a FACT.

[Stu Littlefair]

6. But I would have got 8 if it was a euro 9a. Which is kind of the point we're making about standards. If we remain, maybe one day we can sort Spanish grades out.


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[petejh]

Typical remainer's attitude, let's tell the Spanish what to do with their grades before getting our own trad grades in order.

[Will Hunt]

[a dense loner]

I'm not against people supporting their views with links, I'm against 8 links in 9 posts. Same with anything, like the coat with 9 buttons but you can only fasten 8

[Oldmanmatt]

Amazing. Not long ago they were his biggest supporters...




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