[erm]

Hope ?  Try this...

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/half-of-leave-voters-believe-eu-referendum-will-be-rigged

I always find conspiracy theories funny, because most of them are either so complex as to seem impossible or require so many people to be in on it that stopping a leak would be impossible.

[Fultonius]

Seankenny, do I trust the politicians who will get in if we vote leave? No, is that a question for a simple child? I wouldn't trust them any more or less than I do any other politician.

I can accept the "long game" argument. I had the same with the Scottish IndyREF - I'm not great fan of Alex Salmond but I was looking past the immediate aftermath to the green grass utopia that would follow (haha, as if...anyway).

In this referendum I think this is a more difficult matter - Gove, Boris etc. would be in power right at the moment that all these new EU-less laws and trade agreements need to be drafted and all the "Heavy" regulations modified. So what we'd be doing is basically giving them a free reign to mould these laws exactly to suit themselves, and on their recent track record I don't think they can be trusted, but that is my opinion.

You could still play the long game, but there's a lot of shit to work through to reach the holy grail of self governance. (a target which I think has been massively overplayed)

[seankenny]

Seankenny, do I trust the politicians who will get in if we vote leave? No, is that a question for a simple child? I wouldn't trust them any more or less than I do any other politician.

Regarding smart leavers v idiot racist leavers, it doesn't matter which is which. Same as in any other kind of vote with equal weighting. You deal with what's in front of you before you deal with the next bit.

The problem with your reply is that it assumes all politicians are of equal competence - and to be sure, it's competence as in get the job done that I'm talking about here, not any moral quality or vision which might inspire trust. Perhaps politics is an outlier separate from all other forms of human activity, in which there are degrees of ability, but I find this suggestion unlikely. And given that there are degrees of ability at actually getting stuff done, I'd suggest that Boris and IDS are at the lower end of that spectrum.

[SA Chris]

Hope ?  Try this...

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/half-of-leave-voters-believe-eu-referendum-will-be-rigged

I always find conspiracy theories funny, because most of them are either so complex as to seem impossible or require so many people to be in on it that stopping a leak would be impossible.

Remarkable that this is even before the result in announced. At least in the Scottish Indref they waited until the next day.

[tommytwotone]

Interesting on the odds - all the media/papers are giving it all this "it's a close thing, it's all hanging in the balance" stuff based on opinion polls, yet the bookies are painting a vastly different picture, and the bookies are usually right on these things, especially given how wrong the polls were a year ago in the election. Are the papers just trying to talk-up their own influence?

If you take it alongside the boost to the FTSE earlier in the week I think you might be right, though of course that could just be another pro-Remain echo chamber as much as the "it's really close" echo-chamber!


What it does mean is that if you are a stanched Brexiteer and you think that's gonna be the result, forgetting all the previous comments; the one respect in which I can legitimately call you an idiot would be not putting your money where your mouth is and smashing a few hundred quid at those 3/1 odds!


I eagerly await screenshots of Shark / Pete and Dense's betting accounts...of course for any Remainers, an "emotional hedge" might be a good idea in the event we wake up Friday morning to a Leave result. At least you'll have a few quid to buy some beers to drown your sorrows.

[Fultonius]

I've never put a but on, but I'm wondering about putting £50 on brexit....just to soften the blow if it happens!

[bigtuboflard]

I've just received an out of the ordinary call from my brother who lives in Paris (probably only hear from him in person maybe once every couple of months) asking me to make sure I vote remain tomorrow. As he has lived there for 20 years now he's no longer eligible to vote so wanted to make sure me and the rest of the family were doing their bit for him instead....

Didn't get a chance to question his reasoning behind it as I'm at work but I'll make sure I get the detail from him next time we speak 

[GraemeA]

I'm pretty sure having negotiated being in the EU, without being in either Euro or Schengen, that we've already got the best of both worlds.

The only part I've had (indirect) involvement in in is EN standards for rope access. Without the UK on the standards committee I know we would have much worse standards. Redrafting them all as BS standards would take forever, cost an absolute fortune, and be pointless as all the big manufacturers are on the continent.

If the EU is considered undemocratic what is your model of a proper democracy?

The standards are already British Standards, that is what the BS in BS EN means.

Having worked on the Climbing Wall Standards when I was at the BMC I would say that they would have been worse from the UK perspective if we weren't at the table eg single texture mats under bouldering walls like in France

[GraemeA]

Explain why 'in no time'. That makes it sound like one week or one month. You must be aware that there's a minimum two-year exit process during which we remain with the current trade deals no?

It's good to debate these points and I'm open to being convinced but debate based on facts where they exist.

What about the fact that the Dept for Business, Innovations & Skills is shedding 4,000 jobs. That might have an impact on possible trade negotiations.

[Will Hunt]

I'm pretty sure having negotiated being in the EU, without being in either Euro or Schengen, that we've already got the best of both worlds.

The only part I've had (indirect) involvement in in is EN standards for rope access. Without the UK on the standards committee I know we would have much worse standards. Redrafting them all as BS standards would take forever, cost an absolute fortune, and be pointless as all the big manufacturers are on the continent.

If the EU is considered undemocratic what is your model of a proper democracy?

The standards are already British Standards, that is what the BS in BS EN means.

Having worked on the Climbing Wall Standards when I was at the BMC I would say that they would have been worse from the UK perspective if we weren't at the table eg single texture mats under bouldering walls like in France

Technocrat scum! My local MP should have been deciding those standards! Rah rah rah where's my Stella?

[GraemeA]

Technocrat scum! My local MP should have been deciding those standards! Rah rah rah where's my Stella?

On the Working Group everyone was from the climbing wall industry. I guess this is the case for all European Standards but this is overlooked and we are all somehow faceless bureaucrats.

[Johnny Brown]

Same in rope access. You can't write by committee but it is a very powerful tool for editing. I'm sure this is the same in law. A non-elected individual or small group write under direction and approval of elected members.

Dense was suggesting we vote out write our own 'better' legislation. Putting/ keeping BS in front of EN is irrelevant to this, which is why I didn't mention it.

I have been clinging to the belief that this supposedly close race is purely due to excessive 'balance' from the press. When did the bookies last get it wrong?

[tommytwotone]

I have been clinging to the belief that this supposedly close race is purely due to excessive 'balance' from the press. When did the bookies last get it wrong?

Still waiting for those screenshots, Leave voters...

[dave]

BREAKING NEWS

Remain are really pulling out the big guns now we're into the home straight:

https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/highlight/bobby-george-comes-out-for-remain-asks-us-not-to-fuck-up-his-future

[GraemeA]

BREAKING NEWS

Remain are really pulling out the big guns now we're into the home straight:

https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/highlight/bobby-george-comes-out-for-remain-asks-us-not-to-fuck-up-his-future

Great article, love the bit about Gove "We want to see him take Michael Gove in a crushing chokehold, and shout "ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTTTYYYYY!" in his ear until he promises not to tell any more lies about Turkey. "

[Oldmanmatt]

I like the idea of having Gove in a chokehold.

Some one might have to tell me when to stop, though.


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[SA Chris]

Stop when there's no pulse? Tempting, but pointless, after that.

[tregiffian]

I see that Sir Bobby Charlton is voting Out.

[tomtom]

I see that Sir Bobby Charlton is voting Out.

Obviously lost his allegiance to United then

[petejh]

I have been clinging to the belief that this supposedly close race is purely due to excessive 'balance' from the press. When did the bookies last get it wrong?

Still waiting for those screenshots, Leave voters...

I don't understand your point? Why don't you bet on remain and post up a screenshot?

I'm not betting my money on anything to do with the remain/leave issue - I think it'll be a similar result to the Scotxit in favour of remain. I'll be content either way but a leave result wouldn't displease me. My money's in US and Canadian shares and the FTSE. 

[petejh]

So Remainers, passing on the queen's supposed question to you all: give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of the EU.
1.
2.
3.

[dave]

1. Farage
2. Johnson
3. Gove

[erm]

So Remainers, passing on the queen's supposed question to you all: give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of the EU.
1.
2.
3.

1. Greater economic prosperity
2. Greater security
3. A rejection of navel gazing bullshit and a statement of meaningful engagement with the world at large

I have more if you want them?

[Fultonius]

So Remainers, passing on the queen's supposed question to you all: give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of the EU.

1. Staying in means we have a say in the rules & regulations that govern the single market and other EU decisions.

I see a collection of SMEs in Wales  pointless link think that because most of them don't trade in the EU they shouldn't have to comply with EU legislation. What I don't get is why they think the UK will draft favourable new regulations? The UK govt will be just as influenced by big business lobbying (or more so, who knows?) when it comes to drafting new legislation. Wales is just as arse-end backwater as Scotland is in Westminster's eyes, so they're not going to be high on the priority list.

2. Staying in gives us bargaining power in the world market.

The UK exports the square root of fuck all these days. Having access to other EU exporters allows us more bargaining power on the world market than we would have alone


3. Because easily going to live & work in Europe, while other's come to live and work here is actually really quite good.

Seeing how much hassle it is for the hardworking, intelligent Mexican wife of my friend to try to relocate to the UK is quite an eye opener. She's not had her passport for 6 months!

4.5.6.7.8.9.10 are available on request.

[Oldmanmatt]

2. Staying in gives us bargaining power in the world market.

The UK exports the square root of fuck all these days. Having access to other EU exporters allows us more bargaining power on the world market than we would have alone

Given that 78% of our GDP is in "Service industries", the majority of that are "Financial services" and we run at a trade deficit, this is probably an understatement.

Oh, and for anyone that might be concerned about how the EU has decimated our Agricultural industry. According to the ONS, it's little changed in relative value to GDP since joining at a whopping 0.3% GDP.
I mentioned that because it has been much mentioned by Brexit minded friends of mine (who seem to deem themselves "rural" despite mainly commuting from Devon villages to a desk in the nearest city).


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