[petejh]

Lets not mention the wider implications of leaving will have, when other countries then decide to leave too, and the whole thing crumbles into a shit pile.  Security then ? free and easy trade?

That isn't a compelling argument to remain in any Union - essentially 'remain in the EU, or the EU will fail'.

Doing it for the kids..

[a dense loner]

I voted "out" last week.

[SA Chris]

I came out last week.

[a dense loner]

That was the week before! Doylo video'd it but luckily no one believed it

[Oldmanmatt]

Interesting how many people stand to make a killing on a Brexit and that the financial markets see it as a negative move.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-14/pound-traders-double-down-on-weaker-pound-wagers-to-35-billion


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[ghisino]

Although i am NOT british, i found éléments of resonance in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

Err... Typo.
Of course I'm Italian!

And I hate EU as much as I love France, Italy, Spain, UK, etc... ;-)

[ghisino]

One thing about the "I don't trust our politicians, so I trust the EU more" argument.

I've seen it already elsewhere (other countries and times).

The scary thing is that it follows a cultural change in which a technocracy is seen as better than politics: there is no need for a social compromise, as long as we find out the right set of rules (laws)

It is ok if one consciously adheres to liberalism, and believes that individual interests will self balance (ie, you believe in the invisible hand, that private vices make public virtues, etc)

The problem is, I see it more as the result of liberalism being presented as the obvious philosophical option, with any alternative vision being discredited as either "old", fascist, communist, non scientific (can any philosophy be a science?) etc...

[Oldmanmatt]

http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf?force=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/brexitbreifspdf


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[shark]

Seeing the 'polls' going in favour of Brexit is fucking depressing,

Especially as the genesis of this whole farce was Tory infighting and Hameron's desire to bribe Tory voters not to defect to UKIP, and now the rest of us are dragged into this as collateral damage. The fucking cunt.

Yes. This is not brought about by a major external watershed that would legitimately prompt a referendum such as Russia being allowed to join the EU or a million immigrants rafting up the Thames or being told we have to join the Euro or we are out.

Most normal people don't want a vote but have to vote because it is so important. Most normal people realise that voting is based on guesses about a largely unknowable future. Furthermore it has been initiated by a government whose leaders didnt want a referendum in teh first place.

[finbarrr]

I don't believe the title of this article is true ("Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything") ,but I believe that feeling is what is driving most leave-voters.
Personally I'd like to vote "leave" as I dislike concentration of power, but I am Dutch. I have voted against the "European constitution" like most of the voters in the Netherlands years ago, then our European rulers changed the name to "European binding contract" and told us we would learn to like it..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/brexit-working-class-sick-racist-eu-referendum

[erm]

Just a quick question on the sovereignty bit. So the EU robs us of self determination but all the other international agreements we have made don't?

The fact that as a NATO member we are obliged to go to war, if certain conditions are meet, is somehow not a problem vs. but we agree to have lower power light builds and that is a problem?

I get anger at the current crop of politicians.
I get a feeling that things are moving in the wrong direction.
I get a desire for better.
I just don't get how all that lands at the EU's feet, and how the proposed exit from one international body, albeit a very important one, is going make things better?

PS. The Scottish parliament had to get permission to hold a referendum on UK membership, but the UK did not need permission for this referendum. Sounds a lot like sovereignty to me...

PPS. The UK has the least regulated labour market of any EU member and one of the least regulated in the OECD (http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf).

[erm]

I have voted against the "European constitution" like most of the voters in the Netherlands years ago, then our European rulers changed the name to "European binding contract" and told us we would learn to like it..

This isn't meant to be rude, but frankly how much did you know about the content of the European Constitution when you voted against it? I'm curious, honestly!

(This is when you tell me that you are lawyer of international law and I feel a bit sheepish.)

[Duma]

Thank you erm.

[Bonjoy]

Just a quick question on the sovereignty bit. So the EU robs us of self determination but all the other international agreements we have made don't?

The fact that as a NATO member we are obliged to go to war, if certain conditions are meet, is somehow not a problem vs. but we agree to have lower power light builds and that is a problem?

I get anger at the current crop of politicians.
I get a feeling that things are moving in the wrong direction.
I get a desire for better.
I just don't get how all that lands at the EU's feet, and how the proposed exit from one international body, albeit a very important one, is going make things better?

PS. The Scottish parliament had to get permission to hold a referendum on UK membership, but the UK did not need permission for this referendum. Sounds a lot like sovereignty to me...

PPS. The UK has the least regulated labour market of any EU member and one of the least regulated in the OECD (http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf).

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

[SA Chris]

Well I've voted. Deciding where to put the cross was the easiest bit of the instructions.

[ducko]

Voting out but not too bothered either way

[erm]

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

I am not sure I would, but in a post-Soviet world NATO does seem less important. I picked it because it is an extreme example but there are of course lots of others: WTO, WHO, UN, BIS, OECD, IMF, WB. Commonwealth, NEA, NSG, NNPT, G5/8/10/20, WIPO, OPCW, UPU (how we do post internationally) and the list goes on.

All of these bodies require some agreement which could be characterised as a surrender of sovereignty, some sacrifices are small and some are big.  That was really the only point I was trying to make with regard to NATO/EU. Sorry if it was a little crass, come overplayed.

[ghisino]

Just a quick question on the sovereignty bit. So the EU robs us of self determination but all the other international agreements we have made don't?

The fact that as a NATO member we are obliged to go to war, if certain conditions are meet, is somehow not a problem vs. but we agree to have lower power light builds and that is a problem?

I get anger at the current crop of politicians.
I get a feeling that things are moving in the wrong direction.
I get a desire for better.
I just don't get how all that lands at the EU's feet, and how the proposed exit from one international body, albeit a very important one, is going make things better?

PS. The Scottish parliament had to get permission to hold a referendum on UK membership, but the UK did not need permission for this referendum. Sounds a lot like sovereignty to me...

PPS. The UK has the least regulated labour market of any EU member and one of the least regulated in the OECD (http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf).

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

French sovereignist party upr says: Out of euro, out of EU, out of NATO.

[tomtom]

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

I am not sure I would, but in a post-Soviet world NATO does seem less important. I picked it because it is an extreme example but there are of course lots of others: WTO, WHO, UN, BIS, OECD, IMF, WB. Commonwealth, NEA, NSG, NNPT, G5/8/10/20, WIPO, OPCW, UPU (how we do post internationally) and the list goes on.

All of these bodies require some agreement which could be characterised as a surrender of sovereignty, some sacrifices are small and some are big.  That was really the only point I was trying to make with regard to NATO/EU. Sorry if it was a little crass, come overplayed.

I think with a Putin strong Russia being a member of NATO is pretty important. It may seem at times weak, or not to do much, but look at Russia's annexing of the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine... Russia's intervention there was partly due to their percieved threat of Ukraine joining NATO.

Voting out but not too bothered either way

Why did you vote then?

[dave]

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

I am not sure I would, but in a post-Soviet world NATO does seem less important.

But what about in the world of the post-post-Soviet Putin nationalist thuggery school of foreign policy? He'll will be rubbing his hands at the thought of NATO or the EU becoming less strong. Pick off a few more Baltic states, why not.

[Fultonius]

If you think we are in a safe, calm, post soviet region....scare yourself a bit reading about the US Army in Europe...  CUrrently tooling up all around the Russian perimeter...

http://www.eur.army.mil/

[erm]

I'd vote out of NATO if it was put to a referendum

I am not sure I would, but in a post-Soviet world NATO does seem less important.

But what about in the world of the post-post-Soviet Putin nationalist thuggery school of foreign policy? He'll will be rubbing his hands at the thought of NATO or the EU becoming less strong. Pick off a few more Baltic states, why not.

I haven't given it much thought to be honest. If I was faced with the question I would go away and learn more about the nature of the obligations and the associated costs (financial and otherwise). Fortunately that isn't I question that seems likely to be asked anytime soon.

[finbarrr]

I have voted against the "European constitution" like most of the voters in the Netherlands years ago, then our European rulers changed the name to "European binding contract" and told us we would learn to like it..

This isn't meant to be rude, but frankly how much did you know about the content of the European Constitution when you voted against it? I'm curious, honestly!

(This is when you tell me that you are lawyer of international law and I feel a bit sheepish.)

i hardly read a word of the original text, sure, BUT i read lots and lots of (different) newspapers and commentators. i have all my life. i didn't read the original text because i am not a lawyer (i do not read spanish or russian newspapers because i don't speak the language).
but you finds sources that you trust over the years, people /journalists/ thinkers/ lawyers sometimes even politicians who make sense most of the time.
that's how i try to form my opinion.

gotta get back to work

[erm, sam]

Voting out but not too bothered either way

If you are not really bothered either way why not vote in, as this would maintain the status quo you obviously don't particularly have an issue with?

[SA Chris]

+1