[rich d]

Each to their own political opinions and that, but I've been shocked by lots of people who I thought were intelligent telling me they'll be voting out, and they all want to because of immigration.

[andy popp]

I have just been speaking to a colleague who is extremely active campaigner for Remain in Chester (viewed as a critical bellwether constituency and with a wide mix of social classes etc.). He is out canvassing every evening and will be out next Thursday getting the vote out. He thinks it will be leave, he meets a majority of out voters in every ward he visits. Obviously this far from definitive but it was interesting to get this viewpoint from someone campaigning at the grassroots.

[petejh]

Judging from the conversation in my local pub last night, it would seem that we'll be leaving.

In the spirit of 'good day to bury bad news', the establishment could collude to ensure they prevent a brexit vote by designating the 23rd a new national holiday: 'No White Vans Whatsoever or Cars Older than 5 Years Allowed on Road Day'.
All pubs outside of London, Manchester and Edinburgh given subsidies to offer free lager for all; and the Beeb/ITV show 24hr continuous footage of re-runs of the Euro '96 footy, Only Fools & Horses, and X-Factor.

Not that I'm stereotyping.. 

[shark]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

By having to give employees annual leave, shit like that?

Its a conundrum I know and there is a balance to be struck but added employment legislation and protection are disincentives to employers to recruit in the first place particularly international companies weighing up the advantages of varied countries to set up offices and factories. Flexible working conditions tends to lead to fuller employment. The more job openings there are, the more opportunity there is to move to a better employer or better paid job. We are competing internationally so its not an even playing field in the competition to sell goods and services around the World and I would prefer that we made our own decisions on employment legislation rather than have them decided for us.       



       

[shark]

I have just been speaking to a colleague who is extremely active campaigner for Remain in Chester (viewed as a critical bellwether constituency and with a wide mix of social classes etc.). He is out canvassing every evening and will be out next Thursday getting the vote out. He thinks it will be leave, he meets a majority of out voters in every ward he visits. Obviously this far from definitive but it was interesting to get this viewpoint from someone campaigning at the grassroots.

They still close the city gates in Chester at night to keep the Welsh out

[petejh]

Stupid English cunts, there's a river running right through it.

[dave]

So the logic is the shitter employers can get away with treating staff, the more likely staff are to leave, hence more "opportunity" there is for folk to move on, and that's a good thing? And this is beneficial for us right? Amazing.

Based on that logic next time you go to Malham I'll tag along and deprive you of food and drink, smearing shit on your shoes and on redpoint attempts I'll keep tugging down on the rope. This will give you more opportunity to either train harder or move on to a better route.

[Bonjoy]

I’ve postal voted to remain already.
I’ve little to add to what others have said already.
One point that hasn’t been mentioned here though is that if we vote to remain and it actually becomes clear that being in the EU is a net bad thing, then we always have the option of further referenda . If we vote to leave and it becomes clear it is a net bad thing, we are well and truly stuck with it.
Also regards improved trade deals. Why does anyone think that a small economic entity will be able to cut a better deal in a negotiation than a large economic entity? The opposite would seem more likely to me.
Regards gaining greater democracy. Getting a brand new unelected extra right-wing government by default doesn’t seem very democratic to me and shifting them if the Scots end up extracting themselves could prove very tricky.

[SamT]

Each to their own political opinions and that, but I've been shocked by lots of people who I thought were intelligent telling me they'll be voting out, and they all want to because of immigration.

This..      

I spent the weekend with an old friend who I was gobsmacked to hear say he was un-decided, despite spending the rest of the weekend lambasting the tories/boris anyone with an anti immigration stance.  He "liked the idea" of being out.

I'm just hoping beyond all hope, that the silent masses turn out and vote in.  I think its going to be a close run thing.

[Bonjoy]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

By having to give employees annual leave, shit like that?

Its a conundrum I know and there is a balance to be struck but added employment legislation and protection are disincentives to employers to recruit in the first place particularly international companies weighing up the advantages of varied countries to set up offices and factories. Flexible working conditions tends to lead to fuller employment. The more job openings there are, the more opportunity there is to move to a better employer or better paid job. We are competing internationally so its not an even playing field in the competition to sell goods and services around the World and I would prefer that we made our own decisions on employment legislation rather than have them decided for us.       



     

Also known as a race to the bottom. The end point of which is a competition between nations with regard to who can provide the worst working conditions. And having eschewed freedom of movement for workers it's not as if those able can bugger off to somewhere more sane.
At least as part of the EU we are free from an arms race of worker bashing with our near neighbours.

[shark]

One point that hasn’t been mentioned here though is that if we vote to remain and it actually becomes clear that being in the EU is a net bad thing, then we always have the option of further referenda . If we vote to leave and it becomes clear it is a net bad thing, we are well and truly stuck with it.

Good point

[dave]

What BJ said.

[tomtom]

The polls got very close just before the Scottish referendum too - it's just the media feeding frenzy. Ladbrokes still have it at 62% Remain.

In the last two referendums we have voted for the status quo. I don't see any clearer case for change this time so I'm pretty sure it'll be the same again.

In the last week (I've been checking) bet365's brexit odds have changed from 12/5 to 11/5 to 7/4 last time I checked. Ask 3T but that's a big shift in what the bookies think will happen.

All this comes down to is whether or not you think the grass is greener on the other side. I don't. And have seen no evidence (just rhetoric) to show anything different.

[tomtom]

Just checked. Now 6/4 brexit, 8/15 remain.

[Oldmanmatt]

I’ve postal voted to remain already.
I’ve little to add to what others have said already.
One point that hasn’t been mentioned here though is that if we vote to remain and it actually becomes clear that being in the EU is a net bad thing, then we always have the option of further referenda . If we vote to leave and it becomes clear it is a net bad thing, we are well and truly stuck with it.
Also regards improved trade deals. Why does anyone think that a small economic entity will be able to cut a better deal in a negotiation than a large economic entity? The opposite would seem more likely to me.
Regards gaining greater democracy. Getting a brand new unelected extra right-wing government by default doesn’t seem very democratic to me and shifting them if the Scots end up extracting themselves could prove very tricky.

This.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shark]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

By having to give employees annual leave, shit like that?

Its a conundrum I know and there is a balance to be struck but added employment legislation and protection are disincentives to employers to recruit in the first place particularly international companies weighing up the advantages of varied countries to set up offices and factories. Flexible working conditions tends to lead to fuller employment. The more job openings there are, the more opportunity there is to move to a better employer or better paid job. We are competing internationally so its not an even playing field in the competition to sell goods and services around the World and I would prefer that we made our own decisions on employment legislation rather than have them decided for us.       
     

Also known as a race to the bottom. The end point of which is a competition between nations with regard to who can provide the worst working conditions. And having eschewed freedom of movement for workers it's not as if those able can bugger off to somewhere more sane.
At least as part of the EU we are free from an arms race of worker bashing with our near neighbours.

No that's not what it is known as. There are other factors at play like democracy. It is also not a zero sum game when the world economy is growing. Competitive international capitalism has on the whole been a force for good bringing billions out of subsistence. Clearly it is not perfect and exacerbates inequality. The challenge for richer nations is to maintain competitiveness by relentless efficiency and innovation and effective deployment of capital and investment into such things as education. Finite resources then enter the discussion but we have another thread for this stuff         

[rich d]

The problem I have with the sovereignty/control of our own destiny is that I don't trust the politicians in Westminster to do the right thing, I don't particularly trust the politicians in the EU parliament either, but a lot of complaints I hear about red tape or from businesses wanting to not have to treat workers or the environment correctly, either that or someone in the pub who genuinely believes that France have a problem with the shape of our bananas. On balance I like being part of Europe, more than harking back to some ideal time when we weren't, (and borrowing a phrase) also if I look at the people backing leave I'd be surprised if any of them made it all the way through Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory.

[SA Chris]

immigration

http://newsthump.com/2014/11/28/ukip-warns-of-schrodingers-immigrant-who-lazes-around-on-benefits-whilst-simultaneously-stealing-your-job/

[Oldmanmatt]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

By having to give employees annual leave, shit like that?

Its a conundrum I know and there is a balance to be struck but added employment legislation and protection are disincentives to employers to recruit in the first place particularly international companies weighing up the advantages of varied countries to set up offices and factories. Flexible working conditions tends to lead to fuller employment. The more job openings there are, the more opportunity there is to move to a better employer or better paid job. We are competing internationally so its not an even playing field in the competition to sell goods and services around the World and I would prefer that we made our own decisions on employment legislation rather than have them decided for us.       
     

Also known as a race to the bottom. The end point of which is a competition between nations with regard to who can provide the worst working conditions. And having eschewed freedom of movement for workers it's not as if those able can bugger off to somewhere more sane.
At least as part of the EU we are free from an arms race of worker bashing with our near neighbours.

No that's not what it is known as. There are other factors at play like democracy. It is also not a zero sum game when the world economy is growing. Competitive international capitalism has on the whole been a force for good bringing billions out of subsistence. Clearly it is not perfect and exacerbates inequality. The challenge for richer nations is to maintain competitiveness by relentless efficiency and innovation and effective deployment of capital and investment into such things as education. Finite resources then enter the discussion but we have another thread for this stuff         

How does withdrawing from a large, open market, make us a more efficient capitalist society?

I think "Race to the bottom" is an apt description for the erosion of employment rights, too.

I don't think I have any difficulty in hiring and firing as required by the business's needs and worker performance. I think the living wage sucks (as it is an artificially introduced wage hike that does not reflect an improvement in the economy etc etc), but that's not a European imposition. As far as I can see, as an employer, I'm quite well protected by current law (much of it European in origin) and most "Worker rights" are fair (however annoying (and it is) paying two people for the same job, when one is on holiday). The biggest shit bag of being an employer is Statutory Sick pay, which must be born by the employer (not the Government) and, again, is not a product of European regulation, but UK.

So, as an Employer, I have no gripes with the EU.

As a Surveyor and Consulting Engineer (when I was), I used the EU freedom of movement very much to my advantage, and to the advantage of my customers and suppliers. This will not be possible for the current generation for some considerable time after a Brexit, and there is no guarantee that any such arrangements will ever be negotiated with the EU in the future. Fancy applying for a working visa to do a short consult in France? Bloody stupid.

All I hear are vague mumblings, punctuated by the only audible, staccato, one word arguments "Control!"  or "Immigration!"  or "Great Britain!"; without any damn substance or rational beyond overly optimistic national pride.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SamT]

Lets not mention the wider implications of leaving will have, when other countries then decide to leave too, and the whole thing crumbles into a shit pile.  Security then ? free and easy trade?

[SamT]

As an aside - what the farmers thinking... I assume they're in  on the basis they'll lose out on the massive EU subsidies the farming industry gets (reputedly)

[Oldmanmatt]

Lets not mention the wider implications of leaving will have, when other countries then decide to leave too, and the whole thing crumbles into a shit pile.  Security then ? free and easy trade?

Oh don't be silly Sam, nothing bad will happen.
Lot's of very trustworthy people, like that nice chap Farage, say so.

I'm quite sure all those supposed "Experts" who predict bad things are just "vested interests" and Euro-shills.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tregiffian]

There is an argument that the Eurozone will implode soon anyway - one size monetary policy clearly cannot fit all - and we are wise to be as far away as possible when it happens.

[galpinos]

As an aside - what the farmers thinking... I assume they're in  on the basis they'll lose out on the massive EU subsidies the farming industry gets (reputedly)

Out, as they get less than some continental farmers and are living in the vain hope that a post Brexit government will give them a bigger subsidy that that of the current EU gift.

[T_B]

There is an argument that the Eurozone will implode soon anyway - one size monetary policy clearly cannot fit all - and we are wise to be as far away as possible when it happens.

Which is the reason why the folk I know who are voting for Brexit are i.e. Greece is on life support, Italy is going to go the same way.