[Lund]

Oh and for want of another reason look at the shit Lund is getting for daring to upset the learned majority by asking questions against the grain of what people on here think other people should be doing.

In case you had my post in mind I'll make it explicit: the EU is a positive force in language learning at all levels, allowing for free movement and close links both at commercial and academic levels. Want to do an exchange in Maastricht, engineering in Hamburg? - apply to Erasmus+ , or just go and pay their fees rather than ours.

The reason language learning is so screwed up at GCSE has everything to do with cultural factors (complicated) and political ones (simple) ie the Labour administration's idiotic decision to make them optional at GCSE. Languages are -statistically- a harder qualification to get. No wonder kids have voted with their feet. (The others are Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry).

Just for the record, it's my typing and my attitude to writing on a forum that is weak, not my English.  I can speak French a bit, but I didn't really like it and was forced to do it at GCSE.  I did get an A.  But then again I got an A in everything, except the things I did better in.  Also, since you mention it, I have A levels in Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Theology and Electronics.  I only got a B in Theology, but I entirely blame this on it being assessed through essays: perhaps my English isn't so good after all - or perhaps it is my ability to form and elucidate a coherent argument?

I am getting some shit.  But only really from Johnny because he doesn't like the implication I inferred from his argument linking his grandfathers wartime service fighting Germany with the argument to stay in the EU today.

However in the context of the overall global economy and job opportunities I believe that a lack of bilingualism is a serious disadvantage.

I'm not sure about this.  I think for most multi-national companies, the core language is English.  However, there are local functions - support, sales, etc. - that still (for obvious reasons) require local languages.  Much of APAC (which require local partners for many reasons), latin america.  EMEA is very English speaking in my experience.

[mrjonathanr]

Don't be so sensitive Lund. I am glad you got lots of GCSEs, including French.

But that monolingualism isn't a disadvantage not an individual but country-wide basis? Way out.

[mrjonathanr]

Postscript - just wanted to add this:

Pointing out that you are wrong about the role of the EU in language learning isn't giving you shit, it's responding to an inaccurate comment. Nor is a little jibe about your typos, it's pretty gentle stuff really.

The problem is that from the perspective of an English speaker there is an enormous advantage and wealth of opportunity. But it's not the whole story.  Don't confuse individual opportunity with global trends. There is an increasingly competitive global job market and monolingualism represents a disadvantage to us as a nation. The UK is being increasingly bypassed in recruitment.

[a dense loner]

Bullshit

[mrjonathanr]

How illuminating.

[slackline]

There is an increasingly competitive global job market and monolingualism represents a disadvantage to us as a nation. The UK is being increasingly bypassed in recruitment.

Any links to data to support this?

[rich d]

Work for a multinational (with a French head office) Everything we do across the different divisions is in English, obviously locally the local languages are used but as soon as it comes to anything across national borders English is the language of choice. The limit on group and international roles is not being bilingual but on not speaking English.

[webbo]

Forgive me for being paranoid but if we leave the EU. Does no one else se the possibility that we will have either Boris or Farage as PM and are main trading partner being headed up by Trump.
That's a world I can't wait to live in.

[Lund]

Pointing out that you are wrong about the role of the EU in language learning isn't giving you shit, it's responding to an inaccurate comment. Nor is a little jibe about your typos, it's pretty gentle stuff really.

Where did I say that saying that amounted to giving me shit?

The role of the EU in language learning was a sarcastic comment.  I expected clever and knowledgeable people to pick up on it. 

The problem is that from the perspective of an English speaker there is an enormous advantage and wealth of opportunity. But it's not the whole story.  Don't confuse individual opportunity with global trends. There is an increasingly competitive global job market and monolingualism represents a disadvantage to us as a nation. The UK is being increasingly bypassed in recruitment.

Not in my experience.  Source/data?  Without that, Dense's response is right - and more illuminating than your asserted opinion.

[Lund]

Forgive me for being paranoid but if we leave the EU. Does no one else se the possibility that we will have either Boris or Farage as PM and are main trading partner being headed up by Trump.
That's a world I can't wait to live in.

Farage won't happen.  He's not even an MP.  Trump - don't worry about him.  Even if he gets elected, he can't do much - apart from drop bombs and shit, the executive in the US can be very effectively crippled by the senate/congress.

[jwi]

There are lots of jobs in France where you get by in English. I have one (where ability to fake any prestige accent of english is a competitive advantage [I'm working on adding mid-atlantic atm]). Or, eh, barely half of one job, but whatever.

There are way more jobs in France where you get nowhere without English. Bicycle repair man, store attendant, car mechanic, hair dresser, plumber, fireman, fashion designer, newspaper editor, secretary, bank clerk, receptionist, telephone operator, supermarket checkout desk, and a few hundred other occupations are all closed to anyone who doesn't speak French between ok via fluent and to the near native level required for most jobs.

[Oldmanmatt]

I have spent most of my adult life as an Expat. I moved around far too much to ever pick up more than a smattering of the local lingo, enough to be polite and sometimes enough for basic convo. This has always served me well. However I was, during my last year in Dubai (07-08) conscious that the steady rise of the East was changing the dynamic. More of my compatriots were needing Eastern (read Mandarin) language abilities and that the Eastern labour force wasgrowing.
Also, I felt like the US influence was waining in the Mid East in favour of the Eastern nations. Perhaps the current hiatus in the Chinese march means we don't feel it yet, this far West; but I would guess that English as the international language of business might be a fading idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jwi]

There are way more jobs in France where you get nowhere without French English.

sorry.

[Falling Down]

This a good article looking at the historical precedent of negotiating trade deals outside the EU (and it's a little bit funny).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12182032/A-British-free-trade-deal-outside-the-EU-History-shows-thats-easier-said-than-done.html

[SamT]

Article on the Radio this morning about our looming energy crisis (on account of closing power stations down and not opening enough new ones) and one of the main ideas is more interconnectors with Europe.  We import quite a lot of energy (~10 GWh per day) from France and the Netherlands currently so I wonder how that would all play out should we exit. 
Caveat - some of the new interconnectors would be to Norway (for excess hydro) and Iceland (geothermal) which are not currently part of the EU.

[lagerstarfish]

if we exit, we won't be bound by all the crazy European health and safety rules, so will be able to buy in cheap chinese nuclear power plants - maybe something really cheap like a used nuke plant from North Korea to get things going?

[Bonjoy]

I haven't been following this and I don't really know what point is being made regards second languages. But I do think the old trope (and this is an idle observation rather than a suggestion that anyone here holds this simplistic view) that Brits don't speak a second language out of some sort of arrogance and laziness is self flagellatory nonesense.
There is a massive asymmetry between english as a second language for a european and a european language as a second language for a Brit. For good or ill english is the default language between europeans of differing primary language. English as a second language unlocks the ability to communicate with virtually all other europeans with a second language, plus primary english speakers. For a primary english speaker the utility of a second language is hugely reduced (as a large proportion of the people you wish to communicate with already speak english) and dispersed (learning a second language will only unlock communication with a subset of a subset e.g. a french speaker who does not speak english).
On top of that english is fairly pervasive within popular media in many european countries, in a way that no other language is in the UK.

[lagerstarfish]

english is fairly pervasive within popular media in many european countries, in a way that no other language is in the UK.

apart from txtspk

[jwi]

I was surprised how important and useful my very rusty school-german was when I spent a few months in a german research institute. Despite 20-30% of the staff being from abroad.

[Grubes]

if we exit, we won't be bound by all the crazy European health and safety rules, so will be able to buy in cheap chinese nuclear power plants - maybe something really cheap like a used nuke plant from North Korea to get things going?

This is the first thing I have read on this thread being avoiding it but its friday afternoon and I am clock watching.

It is worth noting that china are the world leaders at building modern up to code nuclear power stations closely followed by the (south) koreans. Their technology and safety standards are well ahead of the french, americans and russians.

[Lund]

We won't buy Chinese due to security considerations.  You're not even allowed Chinese technology in the core of your phone network.  (This is official in the US, about to be in Oz, and is unofficially true here.)

[lagerstarfish]

The Japanese have got some nuclear stuff that they don't want - we could buy that

[erm]

-EU is not a democracy but rather a "technocracy".
-a true democratic reform of EU institutions is politically unfeasible - it implies at least a sort of federal budget and a central bank under political control (not "independent" as is the case for the BCE)
-even if it was technically reformed in a true democratic sense, its institutions will not function properly until the day when all EU citizens speak the same language and feel some sort of common identity. I mean all, and especially those having the least favourable socioeconomic status.

To argue that the leadership of the EU is distant from the electorate is entirely fair, but to argue that it is undemocratic isn't. If you will:

1) The European Parliament is an elected body - low turnout doesn't make it otherwise

2) The European Council is made up of the elected leaders of the member states - whatever your feeling on the respective electoral systems they are still elected

3) The Council of the European Union is a little funny but we are essentially talking the relevant government ministers from the member states - again democratic

4) The Commission is the only really tricky one - its members are selected by the European Council, and are more distant from a clear and distinct election. However, they don't just appear, and rather are proposed by the elected leadership of the member states, before confirmation by the European Parliament

5) There already exists an EU budget, simple fact. Central banks are not under "direct political control" because our political leaders have decided that they should not be (we can discuss the merits of this but again the current status has nothing to do with democracy or otherwise)

All of this makes the governance of the EU quite far from the electorate, but it is hardly the case that they are undemocratic overlords.

That said I can see your common identity point, and the common language may be a part of that. However, I'd like to hear more of an argument on the identity component of your post? Why does the language give the identity? Is the identity mutually exclusive?

[cjsheps]

I was surprised how important and useful my very rusty school-german was when I spent a few months in a german research institute.

Err...

[lagerstarfish]

my impression is that nobody seems to have much idea about what might happen to the economy if we leave - which is fair enough, given that we have this stupid "democracy" thing in place that means we don't know what the rules will be from one decade to the next

what are the thoughts of UKB on what might happen?

jobs, house prices, mortgage rates, inflation, growth etc.