[a dense loner]

No he's not

[Johnny Brown]

I think Lund is making some good points, but SHOUTING, insisting on a facile interpretation of what someone wrote whilst insulting them is not endearing him to me to be honest.

Shame you aren't interested in sharing your thoughts Lee. Re England, no I'm not 12. We've gone from being little fighting kingdoms like Mercia, to England, then the Uk, now Europe. I think leaving Europe will precipitate the break up of the UK.

[Fultonius]

Shame you aren't interested in sharing your thoughts Lee.

Me too. I've heard the main arguments but you clearly have different reasons, but I understand if you're not fussed about sharing them.

I think leaving Europe will precipitate the break up of the UK.

And the rest of Europe?  Seems like some far right Danes are waiting with bated breath.

[abarro81]

I think leaving Europe will precipitate the break up of the UK.

If I were a Scot who'd voted to stay in the UK, and English voters then took me out of the EU, I'd
1. be fuming
2. be demanding another referendum
...so on the whole I share your suspicions

[mrjonathanr]

Oh and for want of another reason look at the shit Lund is getting for daring to upset the learned majority by asking questions against the grain of what people on here think other people should be doing.

In case you had my post in mind I'll make it explicit: the EU is a positive force in language learning at all levels, allowing for free movement and close links both at commercial and academic levels. Want to do an exchange in Maastricht, engineering in Hamburg? - apply to Erasmus+ , or just go and pay their fees rather than ours.

The reason language learning is so screwed up at GCSE has everything to do with cultural factors (complicated) and political ones (simple) ie the Labour administration's idiotic decision to make them optional at GCSE. Languages are -statistically- a harder qualification to get. No wonder kids have voted with their feet. (The others are Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry).

 As I understand it, the motivation was to improve attendance in rather disaffected kids. There has always been a mechanism for disapplying weaker candidates, it should have been used more freely instead. This policy is a disaster which will cost the country £billions in missed trade because our employees don't have the necessary language skills to compete in a global market. Jobs and investement already go elsewhere. That can only get worse.

As for Lund not spouting the party line, that's a good thing, it's essential to have a range of views. But that the EU somewhow undermines the very thing it champions and facilitates is clearly fantasy.


Edit
A point that might not be obvious, as obviously weaker linguists aren't the ones most likely to miss out plum jobs liaising with other countries.....it's what this does to the structure of language learning across the country as a whole.  Over 50% of uni language schools have closed since 2004. That should be a major concern. We need the world- it does not need us.

[Fultonius]

I think leaving Europe will precipitate the break up of the UK.

If I were a Scot who'd voted to stay in the UK, and English voters then took me out of the EU, I'd
1. be fuming
2. be demanding another referendum
...so on the whole I share your suspicions

And if you were a Scot who'd voted to leave the UK you'd potentially be voting to leave the EU, in order to trigger a second referendum. (I think this could backfire, so I wouldn't consider that option.

[jwi]

This is how I see it entirely from the outside:

Apart from a possible second Scotland independence referendum, which seems very important, but on which I can pass no judgement, I don't see how it is particularly important if UK is in EU or not. It is not likely that UK exiting EU is going to change any of the four freedoms (in any direction) and it is not likely it's going to change common regulations or the budget much either. In theory UK would have a smaller say on common interests being formally outside of EU, but in practice, since UK hardly send any bureaucrats to Brussel, UK's ruling party sits down with the crazy people in the European parliament, none of their political parties seem to have any political vision for EU (apart from the expansion - but that was ages ago), export less than it imports, etc. I cannot see how UK's influence could possibly be smaller.

[ghisino]

i will not vote as i'm an italian living in france, of middle-middle class, with leftist views concerning hard matters (economics, welfare, labour legislation) and slightly more traditionalist views concernig soft matters (education, social institutions)

however i'd like to see what happens if UK leaves EU as it may lead to an EU collapse.

main reasoning (i'll keep it succint)

part 1)

-EU is not a democracy but rather a "technocracy".
-a true democratic reform of EU institutions is politically unfeasible - it implies at least a sort of federal budget and a central bank under political control (not "independent" as is the case for the BCE)
-even if it was technically reformed in a true democratic sense, its institutions will not function properly until the day when all EU citizens speak the same language and feel some sort of common identity. I mean all, and especially those having the least favourable socioeconomic status.

part 2)

-despite its post-democratic nature, EU does have very effective direct and indirect means of influence on memeber states' legislation and budget.
-if we consider "latin" countries (plus france) that are characterized by a fairly unflexible and protective labour legislation and welfare, the EU system is enforcing "structural reforms" that go in the sense of a much more flexible and insecure framework.

part 3)
-in the same countries, leftist parties are forced into two subcategories:
    a)government left (Renzi, Hollande, etc). Not much left of leftist politics, apart from touches of intellectual post-68 folklore
    b) "radical" left. It asks for a reform of EU agenda and institutions but lacks revolutionary balls (=reform or out!) because of its "internationalist" idelogy (thinking that "out" is a nationalistic option, therefore fascist).

-the only parties who can have a coherent position are right wing: moderate/government for elites & upper middle classes, extreme/dangerously close to fascist (Front National etc) for the rest of the population.

[lagerstarfish]

of course many British people feel that they get a poor deal out of the freedom of labor movement within the EU - they severely limit their own opportunities to work in other EU countries because of their reluctance to learn other languages

I suggest an EU wide form of National Service where every young person spends a few years in other parts of the EU doing useful stuff

the EUth brigade (no connection with Dignitas)

[jwi]

To be fair I'd say that lots of UK migrants to France & Spain seem to do fine without too much knowledge of local languages.

[SA Chris]

They do, but I suspect there would be more if there wasn't the barrier, either perceived or real.

I think everyone should be forced to learn Esperanto.

[dave]

To be fair I'd say that lots of UK migrants to France & Spain seem to do fine without too much knowledge of local languages.

Are we talking about ones who work, or ones who go over to retire and spend all their time in english pubs, reading the Mail and drinking Carling? I suspect UK expats who go to europe to work with nonexistent foreign language skills are very much in the minority.

[Fultonius]

Plenty  of them in chamonix! There are about 1000 British expats there and I'd guess more than half don't have enough French language to do a French job. (still,  that's only 500 out of 2M.)

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

[petejh]

Work's changing too. I imagine there's a fair number of Brits who live in other countries and work remotely doing data/IT/finance trades that require no foreign language skills. Easy enough to do data-entry work and spend your life in whichever country you want.

[T_B]

Plenty  of them in chamonix! There are about 1000 British expats there and I'd guess more than half don't have enough French language to do a French job. (still,  that's only 500 out of 2M.)

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

All those British Guides will be back to working in Scotland

[SA Chris]

They can't understand the language up here either.

[mrjonathanr]

of course many British people feel that they get a poor deal out of the freedom of labor movement within the EU - they severely limit their own opportunities to work in other EU countries because of their reluctance to learn other languages

I suggest an EU wide form of National Service where every young person spends a few years in other parts of the EU doing useful stuff

the EUth brigade (no connection with Dignitas)

Is this a manifesto pledge of the Pain au Raisin party? I'm in.

[jwi]

To be fair I'd say that lots of UK migrants to France & Spain seem to do fine without too much knowledge of local languages.

Are we talking about ones who work, or ones who go over to retire

Both.

[Fultonius]

Work's changing too. I imagine there's a fair number of Brits who live in other countries and work remotely doing data/IT/finance trades that require no foreign language skills. Easy enough to do data-entry work and spend your life in whichever country you want.

This does happen quite a lot. People who work:

1. Offshore
2. Web/Graphic Design
3. Freelance IT

Can get by in some places with minimal knowledge of local language, customs, food, culture.... I remember speaking to one meat-head arsehole who worked in Azerbaijan and lived in Malta. He was the archetypal shaved head, overweight, mail reading, carling swilling obnoxious twat who hated everything about Malta except the low tax and sun. 

[mrjonathanr]

To be fair I'd say that lots of UK migrants to France & Spain seem to do fine without too much knowledge of local languages.

Are we talking about ones who work, or ones who go over to retire and spend all their time in english pubs, reading the Mail and drinking Carling? I suspect UK expats who go to europe to work with nonexistent foreign language skills are very much in the minority.

Absolutely agree that a lot of expats are insular and interact little bar complain about the host nation in Andalucía.

Do not agree with the implication that you don't need more than English to thrive in the global economy.

Would be interested to see some data on that.

[Rocksteady]

My employer, a FTSE 100 company, just issued this internal communications (edited by me to remove its ID). I thought it was fairly balanced and highlights some of the areas that give me concern (with my emphasis):

Following the conclusion of the Prime Minister’s negotiations and the setting of a Referendum date, the Group Board has considered the impact of the EU Referendum on the company, its business, customers and employees. Our company has no vote in the forthcoming Referendum – the decision will be taken by the UK electorate and we do not seek to influence the outcome.
We consider that a vote to leave would have little direct impact on trading for our company: our customer base is located very largely in the UK, the US and Asia.
It is however probable that a vote to exit, with a potentially lengthy period of negotiation and an uncertain outcome, would create uncertainty for markets and the broader UK economy in which we operate. Given the lack of clarity about potential alternative trading relationships between the UK and other jurisdictions, and the market and economic uncertainty, the economic case for leaving is unproven; we will continue to keep the situation under review as more and better data and analysis emerges. As one of the largest investors in the UK, we will be actively listening to companies we invest in, who will be assessing the potential impact for themselves.

If we vote to leave I can imagine years and years of full employment for Brit civil servants/diplomats negotiating bilateral trade agreements to replace what we lose by leaving the EU. With lots of legal fees. I'd be dubious of the efficiency of this versus what we have now, and the relative cost to the taxpayer.

[Fultonius]

. Our company has no vote in the forthcoming Referendum – the decision will be taken by the UK electorate and we do not seek to influence the outcome.

...but bloody well vote to stay in the EU!!!! 

[petejh]

Work's changing too. I imagine there's a fair number of Brits who live in other countries and work remotely doing data/IT/finance trades that require no foreign language skills. Easy enough to do data-entry work and spend your life in whichever country you want.

This does happen quite a lot. People who work:

1. Offshore
2. Web/Graphic Design
3. Freelance IT

Can get by in some places with minimal knowledge of local language, customs, food, culture.... I remember speaking to one meat-head arsehole who worked in Azerbaijan and lived in Malta. He was the archetypal shaved head, overweight, mail reading, carling swilling obnoxious twat who hated everything about Malta except the low tax and sun. 

Also data analysis, data entry. I met a girl from the states who was spending a year travelling/climbing around Europe while continuing her full-time job of data entry/data analysis for a medical insurance company. She had to log on 4 evenings per week and work a shift but it didn't matter where in the world she logged-on from - in this case a campsite in Turkey.

To be fair I'd say that lots of UK migrants to France & Spain seem to do fine without too much knowledge of local languages.

Are we talking about ones who work, or ones who go over to retire and spend all their time in english pubs, reading the Mail and drinking Carling? I suspect UK expats who go to europe to work with nonexistent foreign language skills are very much in the minority.

Absolutely agree that a lot of expats are insular and interact little bar complain about the host nation in Andalucía.

Do not agree with the implication that you don't need more than English to thrive in the global economy.

Would be interested to see some data on that.

Agree it'd be interesting to see some data on working patterns.

It certainly wouldn't be my aspiration to live abroad without learning the language and integrating into the society of wherever I lived.
But I do think it's quite possible nowadays to do so in a way it wasn't 10-15 years ago, thanks to technology increasing the ease of working remotely. And so I suppose that counts as 'thriving in the global economy' in some people's eyes. Obviously not in the eyes of many on here.

[mrjonathanr]

It's a subsection of the global workforce definitely. My cousin consults as business analyst, based in Fan Francisco. Every time I'm in Cambridge he seems to be at his folks in civvies, with laptop. He just has to get up at for conference calls at Pacific Ocean Time.

Another way of putting it is that for work based on communication and analysis in anglophone companies where you live is increasingly irrelevant.  However in the context of the overall global economy and job opportunities I believe that a lack of bilingualism is a serious disadvantage.

[jwi]

It's a subsection of the global workforce definitely. My cousin consults as business analyst, based in Fan Francisco. Every time I'm in Cambridge he seems to be at his folks in civvies, with laptop. He just has to get up at for conference calls at Pacific Ocean Time.

Another way of putting it is that for work based on communication and analysis in anglophone companies where you live is increasingly irrelevant.  However in the context of the overall global economy and job opportunities I believe that a lack of bilingualism is a serious disadvantage.

For sure. Especially for the large majority of jobs that are in service, education, etc.