[Oldmanmatt]

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21693584-leaving-eu-would-hurt-britainand-would-also-deal-terrible-blow-west-real-danger?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fimg%2Fpe%2Fst%2Ftherealdangerofbrexit

So...

The Rothschilds are pro-Europe. Not surprising, conspiracy mumbo-jumbo aside; the potential waves of instability through the Western Hemisphere of Grexit was greatly feared.
I think many of our secret "SPECTRE" overlords (read uber-rich without Kardashian levels of insecurity) fear Tsunamis from UK departure and I think they have good cause.


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[slackline]

An open platform for academic collaboration must be a good thing.

Harmonising the framework for clinical trials across Europe has a significant impact on the development of drugs and treatments and their approval throughout the countries involved....

Brexit: a confused concept that threatens public health writes  Martin McKee and Michael J. Galsworthy in the Journal of Public Health

More overview (citing McKee) in UK exit from EU would be serious threat to science and healthcare, experts warn by Adrian O’Dowd in the British Medical Journal.

[shark]

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21693584-leaving-eu-would-hurt-britainand-would-also-deal-terrible-blow-west-real-danger?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fimg%2Fpe%2Fst%2Ftherealdangerofbrexit

Well that was pretty unequivocal for the Economist   

[Lund]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

That was before the united nations, before mutually assured destruction, in a very geopolitically different situation.  To equate leaving the European Union as risking another second world war involving fighting the Germans is facile in the extreme.  Are you Jeremy (Corbyn, or Hunt, take your pick) in disguise?  It's this kind of comment that makes sensible discussion impossible.

This is not the case.

Conflict is not beyond all likelihood, it is barely beyond idle contemplation.
I think JB's Grandpa had good expectation of "peace in (his) time", given the fresh memories of fields of death.
If you missed how close conflict has come in Europe (Balkans) recently and the likelihood of it spreading; then please review.

An the idea that Russia poses no threat?

Nice idea, but I prefer the "Little Mermaid" as a story line; it's more realistic.
Spoke to some Finnish friends yesterday, they're talking about finding Russian patrols deep in their territory and seem to think the new "Cold"war is quite hot.


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The idea that the European Union today is the reason why we are not at war with western europe is fucking bonkers.  60 years ago, yes.  Today, no.  That was my point, quite clearly.  Just as clearly as JB said he didn't need to look as far as Russia.  Implying a link between leaving the EU and fighting someone closer than russia, e.g. Germany.  If you think leaving the EU means we're going to have another war with Germany, then you are on fucking crack.

In terms of Eastern Europe, the EU is as much the cause of conflict as it is the preventer.  Why the fuck did Russia invade Ukraine?  Because they see the EU's expansionist agenda as a threat!  Russia is a great threat.  THAT WAS MY FUCKING POINT YOU FUCKING IMBECILES.

Maybe if I put it in capital letters.

Original comment:

DO YOU THINK THAT OUR NATIONAL SECURITY IS ENHANCED BY BEING IN EUROPE?  WOULD PUTIN BE MORE OR LESS LIKELY TO NUKE US?

[lagerstarfish]

so you're saying that by leaving the EU our basic reading skills will improve?

[Lund]

so you're saying that by leaving the EU our basic reading skills will improve?

Soz.  I edited it to dial it down a bit and obviated your comment.  But to make up for it how about I draw a link between being in the EU and lack of standards in society today, lack of foreign languages an GCSE, "dumbing down" (oh, great phrase, I am doing well) of A-levels, etc.?

[Lund]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d1b3-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#axzz41YY7QBFR

Article with (what it says are) the three economic outcomes from brexit explored.  Perhaps the economic argument isn't 6 and half a dozen after all?

[Johnny Brown]

Just as clearly as JB said he didn't need to look as far as Russia.  Implying a link between leaving the EU and fighting someone closer than russia, e.g. Germany.

No. Implying a continuing process of improved relations and stability in Europe over the last seventy years, from the end of the war through the Berlin wall coming down and the war in the Balkans. Implying withdrawing from Europe would not be a step forward along this path. We were not 'fighting someone closer', but we had troops dying in the Balkans as recently as 2010.

Putin being twitchy is a product of Europe's success, yes. Does it negate or detract from it? Not for me.

Would we be safer from Putin out of Europe? You could argue it both ways. In, we are part of a bigger much target. Out, we will align ourselves more with the old enemy the US.

[Fultonius]

One thing that has been bothering me recently is, are the vast majority of brexit supporters  actually regularly affected by the purported issues,  or are they just influenced by media?

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[a dense loner]

I don't wish to be in the EU, i never have. Nothing in the media or on here has influenced me in the slightest either way. I hope this helps

[Oldmanmatt]

Just as clearly as JB said he didn't need to look as far as Russia.  Implying a link between leaving the EU and fighting someone closer than russia, e.g. Germany.

No. Implying a continuing process of improved relations and stability in Europe over the last seventy years, from the end of the war through the Berlin wall coming down and the war in the Balkans. Implying withdrawing from Europe would not be a step forward along this path. We were not 'fighting someone closer', but we had troops dying in the Balkans as recently as 2010.

Putin being twitchy is a product of Europe's success, yes. Does it negate or detract from it? Not for me.

Would we be safer from Putin out of Europe? You could argue it both ways. In, we are part of a bigger much target. Out, we will align ourselves more with the old enemy the US.

^^^^
Ta JB.

I spent ages typing that out, only to get called away before finishing. Thanks for doing it for me.
Incidentally getting dragged into a war due to the actions of others on the very same borders that today bound theEU, is a bit of a habit of ours.
I think the difference today might be the very significant fact that all the Western European  nations are now in the same alliance and unlikely to align with the "other side".

I think the EU really grew out of that Soviet threat. I think it would have crumbled without and without it I think the prospect of war in Western Europe would be very real today (anyone want to claim Alsace? Bet some Germans would).

I think Putin is doing a Stirling job of replacing  the Soviet threat. I think, without the EU and NATO he might have already made a grab for the former Eastern Bloc countries.


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[Johnny Brown]

I don't wish to be in the EU, i never have. Nothing in the media or on here has influenced me in the slightest either way. I hope this helps

Can you articulate why? Do you wish to be in the United Kingdom or would you rather it was just England?

[Fultonius]

I don't wish to be in the EU, i never have. Nothing in the media or on here has influenced me in the slightest either way. I hope this helps

What are your reasons then? Genuinely interested. Was speaking to friends of my parents last night who live on Northumberland. They seemed to be voting to leave,   was quite surprised. Mainly fear of other people making their decisions for them.

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[abarro81]

I too don't quite get why people want to leave. I'm not sure I'm really any more disconnected from Brussels than I am from Westminster and I quite like things like employment rights...

[Footwork]

Mainly fear of other people making their decisions for them.

Yes and our current government is great at deciding what is right for us

[Fultonius]

Exactly...

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[Will Hunt]

I'm ignorant of the finer details of this so perhaps someone can enlighten me, but we do elect our MEPs and they go and develop and vote on legislation that will affect us. The way some people talk about Europe its like we don't get any influence on these dreaded "red tape" laws.

As an aside, I can't fucking stand it when the media refers to sensible regulation as "red tape" - as if any sort of regulation is bad news. What about having to take a driving test before jumping on the motorway? Is that "red tape"?

[Oldmanmatt]

I'm ignorant of the finer details of this so perhaps someone can enlighten me, but we do elect our MEPs and they go and develop and vote on legislation that will affect us. The way some people talk about Europe its like we don't get any influence on these dreaded "red tape" laws.

As an aside, I can't fucking stand it when the media refers to sensible regulation as "red tape" - as if any sort of regulation is bad news. What about having to take a driving test before jumping on the motorway? Is that "red tape"?

These "red tape" statements always remind me of the Southern Red Neck "Gov'munt cummin ta take ma Guns" ...


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[tomtom]

Fear.

[Teaboy]

Mainly fear of other people making their decisions for them.

Yes and our current government is great at deciding what is right for us

But you shouldn't be deciding on "current government" but future governments. Certainly the UK Parliament is closer to the electorate than the EU Parliament but you're still pretty divorced from the decision making process. I guess the issue is whether you are happy to give up the benefits of being in the EU to be one voice in 60 million as against one voice in 250 million (on the issues the EU parliament currently governs all other concerns being equal).

[mrjonathanr]

Soz.  I edited it to dial it down a bit and obviated your comment.  But to make up for it how about I hdraw a link between being in the EU and lack of standards in society today, lack of foreign languages an GCSE, "dumbing down" (oh, great phrase, I am doing well) of A-levels, etc.?

I'd have another go at English first, if I were you.

[mrjonathanr]

The way some people talk about Europe its like we don't get any influence on these dreaded "red tape" laws.

As an aside, I can't fucking stand it when the media refers to sensible regulation as "red tape" - as if any sort of regulation is bad news. What about having to take a driving test before jumping on the motorway? Is that "red tape"?

'Red Tape' = unnecessary, vexatious legislation which hinders business. Or 'workers' rights' , to give it its usual title.

[a dense loner]

No i don't care to elaborate which is why i haven't said anything earlier. I don't really post on the politics and religion threads, it was a reply to the question how do the people that leave feel they are affected by the media and or purported issues.
Are you 12 Johnny? I don't want it to be an England, just the north, no just sheffield, no no just sheffield south, no just my street, nah surely just my house number? A force of one, chuck norris

[a dense loner]

Oh and for want of another reason look at the shit Lund is getting for daring to upset the learned majority by asking questions against the grain of what people on here think other people should be doing.

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh and for want of another reason look at the shit Lund is getting for daring to upset the learned majority by asking questions against the grain of what people on here think other people should be doing.

He's giving more than he's receiving. Full caps lock 'n all!


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