[tomtom]

Anyway... here is some SCIENCE

http://newsthump.com/2016/02/23/leading-brexit-campaigners-coincidentally-a-shower-of-cnts/

[Oldmanmatt]

Fuck knows what a gun toting tea party member would think of the concept!

Are you suggesting that this is not a description of an ardent UKIPer?

Albeit one toting a Fowling piece...



Nige and his BFF's

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dave]

Is the one in the middle Paul McCartney?

[Oldmanmatt]

Is the one in the middle Paul McCartney?

Yep.

He's singing "Blackbird" and Nige is aiming at Heather...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[petejh]

[quote author = Will Hunt]I think there are only two people on the thread so far who have said "Out" (assuming that Pete's view is out and he's not simply playing Devil's Advocate, not sure). I'd like to hear more from them.[/quote]

So far my thoughts about EU exit are ambivalent.

Wanting to better understand both sides doesn't make you 'out' (or tory).

[Will Hunt]

Fear not. I would never accuse anybody of being a Tory in polite conversation.

[Lund]

Fear not. I would never accuse anybody of being a Tory in polite conversation.

I'm not sure this is valid.

Half (=some) of the Tory's want in, half (= some) want out.  Labour went through the same thing in the seventies.  I don't think there's a correlation between left wing = in, and right wing = out.

The Czech republic is watching with interest.  They have a socialist government.  The dutch too want their own referendum now - and they have a conservative/liberal government.

So I think there is little to suggest a strong correlation between being pro-europe and being right wing.  I personally think that to split down party lines on this issue is fucking idiotic.  Anyone who votes one way or another based on being labour or tory... jesus christ people.

On another topic...

The whole economics thing surprises me.  I think it's a fact that we get less direct from the EU than we put in, even with the rebate.  I also think it's inarguable that we have a strong economy DESPITE the EU, and DESPITE the US: even though our banking sector was exposed by subprime disaster as well as catching the edge off the euro farce.  As a result, I think there is significant merit in the argument that outside of the EU, we would be fine.  I don't say better off - but rather that the reasons our economy is strong is because of it's own uncorrelated-with-the-EU characteristics, so it would be basically the same.

For example, we may trade less easily with the EU - but more easily with India and China as a result of being able to negotiate competitive agreements vs. the main EU trading block.

So really, the question comes down to other factors.

Do you trust a government based in Westminister, combined with devolved and local government, to do a fairer, better job than people in Brussels?  (I would suggest that swearing about the Tories here is again foolish as it's simplistic - you can change the Tories, you can change the welsh government, but you can't change the French.)

Do you feel a kinship with europe?  Do you value the ability to work abroad, for your children to work and live abroad?  Do you value the contribution of people from europe who do the same?  Or would you sacrifice the ability of your kids to live in France to stop Romanians taking their jobs here and forcing your kids to move to France in the first place?

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Do you value voting no highly enough to disregard any risks because it gets rid of Farage's reason for being and he will finally fuck off and drown himself in cheap lager?

[Falling Down]

Lund is right about there being a proportion of the left who are anti EU.  Witness the recent events in Greece.

All of the economic arguments I've heard are really a fig leaf for the other considerations and pro/con prejudices.

[Johnny Brown]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

[petejh]

Fear not. I would never accuse anybody of being a Tory in polite conversation.

I personally think that to split down party lines on this issue is fucking idiotic.  Anyone who votes/thinks one way or another based on being labour or tory... jesus christ people.

This line should be posted in big bold letters on every thread on here which remotely involves political discussion. The NHS one would be a good place.

[Will Hunt]

Fear not. I would never accuse anybody of being a Tory in polite conversation.

I personally think that to split down party lines on this issue is fucking idiotic.  Anyone who votes/thinks one way or another based on being labour or tory... jesus christ people.

This line should be posted in big bold letters on every thread on here which remotely involves political discussion. The NHS one would be a good place.

Just for the record, I never said that I thought Pete was a Tory. The only assumption I'd made was that he was in favour of an Out vote, judging by his posts on this thread. I also said that I appreciated his line of questions could just be playing devil's advocate/exploring both sides of the argument which is a great thing to do.
The first mention of an Out vote being aligned to the Conservatives came from Pete himself.

Wanting to better understand both sides doesn't make you 'out' (or tory).

Anybody with half an ear can see the issue splits both the major parties.

[andy popp]

I also think it's inarguable that we have a strong economy DESPITE the EU, and DESPITE the US

I have no idea what this claim means?

[Will Hunt]

Just to preempt Chris, I have no idea why someone with half an ear would have trouble seeing anything. Carry on 

[Oldmanmatt]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

Was this during the '98 World Cup?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lund]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

That was before the united nations, before mutually assured destruction, in a very geopolitically different situation.  To equate leaving the European Union as risking another second world war involving fighting the Germans is facile in the extreme.  Are you Jeremy (Corbyn, or Hunt, take your pick) in disguise?  It's this kind of comment that makes sensible discussion impossible.

[Lund]

I also think it's inarguable that we have a strong economy DESPITE the EU, and DESPITE the US

I have no idea what this claim means?

Our economy has taken a battering in the last twenty years, if not longer, with many of the recessions we have experienced being as a result of problems in the wider world economy.  From the great depression to the great recession!

The subprime banking crisis has its origins in the US.  The eurozone limps from disaster to disaster, mostly involving Greece.  Both of these have had an impact - yet whilst we might be miles from the swing of Brown's bustless boom and the threat of another recession is far from over, things are better than they were.  Hence, our economy is, relatively speaking, strong, although not without it's problems.

[Lund]

For the record, I'm mostly undecided.  I'd like a smaller, more efficient government - and the EU goes against that.  I resent subsidising France.  But equally... I want to be part of a larger, European family, and I can take the fact that some of the cousins have bad habits and can't be fucked to get a proper job.

[rich d]

Depending what you read there seems to be an economic contribution of £8.3bn to £6.7bn, but that doesn't include some things like research etc and comes out around 0.5% GDP (2013 figures). We put contribute less per capita than Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Belgium (so obviously more than France.) The Confederation of British Industry suggests the direct net economic benefits of membership to the UK are between £62bn and £78bn, however who knows where it gets that from - the problem is would this drop off considerably if we exited.
On migration and controlling our own borders there are 2.2 million Brits living elsewhere in Europe and 2.4 million Europeans living in Britain so fairly even.
European laws don't seem to have been detrimental to the UK in my experience, but haven't exactly enhanced life massively.
For me personally I think the biggest benefit is in being European, being able to travel freely across and around Europe which may not be worth 6bn per year.
I don't think that the European security issue can be discounted - yes it's a very different world to when the 1st and 2nd world wars happened, but surely European Union has helped create that different world. In my lifetime there has been the collapse of communism and Eastern Europe, and massive change in the gulf states - whereas Western Europe for the first time has been at peace internally. That's got to be a good thing and probably worth the cash.
At the moment I'm in, although wading through the jingoistic, sovereignty, border control propaganda makes it hard to know which side is correct.

[tomtom]

To re-iterate one of my earlier posts - I think the concept of the EU (as it stands with the present treaty(s)) is fundamentally socialist. More money is taken from the richer countries - and used in the poorer countries.

Therefore, in a very simplistic way (and simplistic is used very deliberately) it is more likely that there will be greater support from the Labour party than Conservative.

Furthermore, put very simply - generally politicians to the right (in Europe and USA, and Australia) favour a smaller state (possibly with less rules and regulations for business etc..) and those to the left favour a larger state and more government involvement/intervention. The EU (it seems to me) seems to err towards the latter...

[Oldmanmatt]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

That was before the united nations, before mutually assured destruction, in a very geopolitically different situation.  To equate leaving the European Union as risking another second world war involving fighting the Germans is facile in the extreme.  Are you Jeremy (Corbyn, or Hunt, take your pick) in disguise?  It's this kind of comment that makes sensible discussion impossible.

This is not the case.

Conflict is not beyond all likelihood, it is barely beyond idle contemplation.
I think JB's Grandpa had good expectation of "peace in (his) time", given the fresh memories of fields of death.
If you missed how close conflict has come in Europe (Balkans) recently and the likelihood of it spreading; then please review.

An the idea that Russia poses no threat?

Nice idea, but I prefer the "Little Mermaid" as a story line; it's more realistic.
Spoke to some Finnish friends yesterday, they're talking about finding Russian patrols deep in their territory and seem to think the new "Cold"war is quite hot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oldmanmatt]

That sounded angrier than intended. Sorry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[erm]

For the record, I'm mostly undecided.  I'd like a smaller, more efficient government - and the EU goes against that.  I resent subsidising France.  But equally... I want to be part of a larger, European family, and I can take the fact that some of the cousins have bad habits and can't be fucked to get a proper job.

Is France no longer a net contributor?

Numbers are little old, but have a look:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036096.stm

Also you'll find under this link that France stumps up a fair old chunk of the UK rebate...

[Johnny Brown]

Do you think that our national security is enhanced by being in Europe?  Would Putin be more or less likely to nuke us if we are in a trading block with France, German, Greece, etc.?

Given that my Grandad was fighting the Germans in France and Italy not that long ago, I don't need to look as far as Russia to see if being in Europe has enhanced our national security.

That was before the united nations, before mutually assured destruction, in a very geopolitically different situation.  To equate leaving the European Union as risking another second world war involving fighting the Germans is facile in the extreme.  Are you Jeremy (Corbyn, or Hunt, take your pick) in disguise?  It's this kind of comment that makes sensible discussion impossible.

No, it's that kind of condescending twattishness that makes sensible discussion impossible. Are you Sloper in disguise?

Surely you are aware that the political roots of the EU lie in avoiding repeating the horrors of the two world wars? No, I don't think leaving would risk another war with Germany (nor did I imply that). But I fail to see how it would be a positive step in our neighbours eyes.

[cjsheps]

Just a quick comment from me. It's by no means the most important factor in the scheme of things, my (ongoing ERASMUS year Spain wouldn't be possible without the mobility that comes from being in the EU. I'm having probably the best year of my life, and I hope the UK stays in so I can move back in the long term.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of the "ballers" in my (physics) department usually publish joint papers with other EU universities. An open platform for academic collaboration must be a good thing.

[Duma]

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21693584-leaving-eu-would-hurt-britainand-would-also-deal-terrible-blow-west-real-danger?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fimg%2Fpe%2Fst%2Ftherealdangerofbrexit