[shark]

By the way, do I need a passport to post here now?

No that's not necessary but we have asked Lagers to put together a test.

He has two years to implement it.

[Nibile]

No problema.

[tomtom]

How about renaming the forum?

[A Jooser]

Not to mention the ~£70 million a year that Cornwall received from the EU, I'm sure that our new government will be happy to match this...

The headline figures on Cornwall's Objective One funding can't be taken at face value - it's how it's spent, rather than how much it is, that is important. The Eden Project, Falmouth Maritime Museum, Newquay Airport, probably wouldn't exist without it, but these 'success stories' regularly seem to need money from Cornwall Council - at a time when essential services are being cut - to help prop them up. Other things like road infrastructure, more often than not, are just to open up areas of green field for large housing developments to be built by national corporations. The civil servants who allocate how the money is spent (and whose wages are paid through it) are based either in Bristol or London so Cornwall isn't allowed even to see the benefit of these jobs.

I don't put the blame for these problems at the door of the EU, far from it, they're a symptom of a centralised decision-making process that favours corporate business.

I don't know, what have people in west Wales gained from their EU funding? It's interesting to note that the areas that have received most from the EU in 'direct aid' terms voted out. Fundamentally it seems people can't be bought.

The Cornish pasty thing is more relevant but I don't think Ginsters will be re-locating to Portugal anytime soon. Under these rules anyone from anywhere can make or sell a Pasty or Clotted Cream, they just can't call it a 'Cornish Pasty' or 'Cornish Clotted Cream' without falling foul of EU law. It remains to be seen if this regulatory idea can withstand TTIP http://www.cato.org/publications/cato-online-forum/geographical-indications-ttip-impossible-task

So tell me, are people in Sheffield anxious about the impending demise of the Yorkshire Pudding industry? Bakewell Tarts? (But I see these don't have protected status so you're just being bitter )

[tomtom]

As a former Aberystwyth resident - Ceredigion was one of the two areas in Wales that voted remain.

The main indicators of in/out vote are clearly age, wealth and education (if you want to make any generalisations). What's clear is there is a big big difference between what different parts of society are thinking of this.

The number of people I know (and that includes here) saying 'I don't know anyone who votes out!' Is really high - part of that is due to social media leading to you being 'around' people of a similar view - but it also means there's a view apparently held by half the country that I -or my friends don't see or don't get. To me that's the biggest shocker of all this... 

[Oldmanmatt]

There is also the "retirement" vote issue in the SW as a whole. Skewed demographics leave (people who see themselves as) "real" locals under represented. Artificially high house prices (relative to local economies) driven up by retirement and second home purchases; certainly "feels" like it's driving the locals out. It is, for sure, a commonly expressed sentiment  amongst those of long standing residence and has been as long as I've been able to listen.
There has also been some indication/suspicion around how representative local politicians have been, for many  years. The practice of some second home owners of registering one or more family members to vote in the wards of their second home, for instance; causes some quite sarcastic comments around polling stations...

I notice the Welsh have refrained from taking the direct approach to the "Second home" issue, for some time. I assume however the sarcasm persists?

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[DAVETHOMAS90]

As a former Aberystwyth resident - Ceredigion was one of the two areas in Wales that voted remain.

The main indicators of in/out vote are clearly age, wealth and education (if you want to make any generalisations). What's clear is there is a big big difference between what different parts of society are thinking of this.

The number of people I know (and that includes here) saying 'I don't know anyone who votes out!' Is really high - part of that is due to social media leading to you being 'around' people of a similar view - but it also means there's a view apparently held by half the country that I -or my friends don't see or don't get. To me that's the biggest shocker of all this...

Yes, amazing.

I'd been pretty complacent about the result. I think we have to be more respectful to those who won, and consider what we do from here. Encouraging better dialogue, rather than slinging mud from entrenched positions would surely be the best thing here. There's perhaps some "winning over" that the people can achieve, where the politicians failed (from one perspective of course). Better negotiations can start now; it's a way, isn't it, not a destination.

Still shell shocked.

Good posts by A Jooser, above.

[Jaspersharpe]

yeah - I like this idea

maybe an exam as well

Oi! That was my idea you bastard.

[Jaspersharpe]

Don't give up hope yet. This is far from over.....

https://next.ft.com/content/3073daed-7458-38ed-826b-5b6d1dc81dad

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh and.....

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/24/when-i-say-no-i-mean-maybe/

Had an idea before the result and judging by the reactions of Boris and Gove I'm now pretty convinced it's right (was discussing this with FD today on Twitter).

They never actually wanted Leave to win, they wanted a close win for Remain in order to weaken / unsettle Cameron and push their personal agendas for leadership. They are now shitting themselves as they didn't think this would actually happen and have no real plan for what to do next. Compare how they reacted to the braying halfwit Farage, they look at sound completely shellshocked. They're like the many idiots we've seen / heard about who voted Leave and then realised that they didn't actually want it to happen.

Because of this, it's definitely not too late for some massive backtracking. Especially as ALL of the promises of the Leave campaign have already been shown to be total lies (that cunt Hannan's desperation on Twitter is particularly amusing).

So yes, it's definitely a  moment and will be for quite a while.

[a dense loner]

No it won't. It's over and if it's not over then nearly half the country will never vote or listen to a politician again. Which would obviously suit nearly everyone on here, however it can't happen for the sake of democracy. It doesn't matter if they have no plan, they'll need to come up with one and fast. Don't try the old they told us lies ploy please jasper you're better than that.

[Oldmanmatt]

Well some people disagree.
Now the biggest YouGov petition ever.
And apparently there is some legal case for the "less than 75% turnout" argument, I'm told.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2016/06/will-there-be-second-eu-referendum-petition-passes-175-million-signatures

No Dense, I'm not saying it reflects my opinion...

It does look increasingly like we might not exactly leave though. Both Boris, Farage and Redwood have all intimated their interest in the German proposal. That proposal looks suspiciously similar to the "new deal" Cameron failed to get a few months ago (with added bells and whistles) and just the kind of thing that might pacify some of the other restive states.

Possibly and admission of   "We grew too big too quickly"?


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[a dense loner]

Yes the bit that said there will be no vote and it will have no legal weight caught my eye

[Footwork]

They never actually wanted Leave to win, they wanted a close win for Remain in order to weaken / unsettle Cameron and push their personal agendas for leadership. They are now shitting themselves as they didn't think this would actually happen and have no real plan for what to do next. Compare how they reacted to the braying halfwit Farage, they look at sound completely shellshocked. They're like the many idiots we've seen / heard about who voted Leave and then realised that they didn't actually want it to happen.

+1

[Oldmanmatt]

And another Brexiter starts backtracking.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/tory-brexiter-daniel-hannan-leave-campaign-never-promised-radical-decline

Maybe that new woman, you mentioned Dense, is going to be the Ex's twin sister...


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[fried]

You do know that every link you post to NS is paywalled?

[Oldmanmatt]

You do know that every link you post to NS is paywalled?

No, it's never been for me! Sorry!
Possibly due to trying to access it from outside the UK? Is that a thing?


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[Duma]

No it isn't, maybe a French thing?

[Oldmanmatt]

Can't rip the clip, here's the commentary...


" Tory Brexiter Daniel Hannan: Leave campaign never promised "radical decline" in immigration
The voters might not agree...
BY MEDIA MOLE

It was the Leave campaign's pledge to reduce EU immigration that won it the referendum. But Daniel Hannan struck a rather different tone on last night's Newsnight. "It means free movement of labour," the Conservative MEP said of the post-Brexit model he envisaged. An exasperated Evan Davis replied: “I’m sorry we’ve just been through three months of agony on the issue of immigration. The public have been led to believe that what they have voted for is an end to free movement."


Hannan protested that EU migrants would lose "legal entitlements to live in other countries, to vote in other countries and to claim welfare and to have the same university tuition". But Davis wasn't backing down. "Why didn't you say this in the campaign? Why didn't you say in the campaign that you were wanting a scheme where we have free movement of labour? Come on, that's completely at odds with what the public think they have just voted for."


Hannan concluded: "We never said there was going to be some radical decline ... we want a measure of control". Your Mole suspects many voters assumed otherwise. If immigration is barely changed, Hannan and others will soon be burned by the very fires they stoked.

I'm a mole, innit."


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[fried]

No it isn't, maybe a French thing?

Apologies, I thought you'd paid and wasn't aware noone else could see the links. Must be just me to Matt obviously.

[Falling Down]

What Jasper said...

There's loads of stuff going on today that suggests that this is far from over. Forget that daft petition on a second vote.  No-one from the leave campaign has said fuck all today other than back-pedalling on virtually every promise they made during the campaign.  The original EU six are in Berlin (in a bunker?) for a closed doors meeting.  Farage has been given the cold shoulder by the Leave negotiation team and is going to be locked out from anything important.  No sign of George Osbourne or Carney or Boris or Gove or Theresa May.  The press is full of loaded statements from Ford, Nissan, Deutsche, Goldmans etc. Juncker is saying we want Britain out quickly but the EU don't actually have the power to do that.

I don't like to make predictions but.. We've had a non-legally binding referendum that doesn't mandate that article 50 is invoked automatically.  So my guess is that we're in a trial separation period, sleeping in the spare bedroom clutching Article 50 as a threat and there'll be a lot of posturing in public whilst behind-closed-doors negotiations go on.  It's entirely feasible that we'll end up having had a referendum but we stay in for a long time, perhaps indefinitely.  What a mess.

[andy popp]

Spot on Ben. Its a  fucking debacle, and for absolutely no good reason.

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh and.....

https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/24/when-i-say-no-i-mean-maybe/

Had an idea before the result and judging by the reactions of Boris and Gove I'm now pretty convinced it's right (was discussing this with FD today on Twitter).

They never actually wanted Leave to win, they wanted a close win for Remain in order to weaken / unsettle Cameron and push their personal agendas for leadership. They are now shitting themselves as they didn't think this would actually happen and have no real plan for what to do next. Compare how they reacted to the braying halfwit Farage, they look at sound completely shellshocked. They're like the many idiots we've seen / heard about who voted Leave and then realised that they didn't actually want it to happen.

Because of this, it's definitely not too late for some massive backtracking. Especially as ALL of the promises of the Leave campaign have already been shown to be total lies (that cunt Hannan's desperation on Twitter is particularly amusing).

So yes, it's definitely a  moment and will be for quite a while.

Better than what mate? Reading the facts and legalities of the situation and understanding them?

It's not about opinions, it's about understanding what's actually happening. Or not happening.

[LB1782]

What Jasper said...

There's loads of stuff going on today that suggests that this is far from over [...]    What a mess.

Indeed. Looks form page 19 section 70 of the official advice that Scotland and Northern Ireland  may effectively hold vetos.

[Jaspersharpe]

Better than what mate? Reading the facts and legalities of the situation and understanding them?

It's not about opinions, it's about understanding what's actually happening. Or not happening.

Tapatalk quote fail! Was replying to Dense, obviously.