[tomtom]

As long as our nuclear plants don't follow the Japanese lead, I'll be happy...

Built by the Chinese and owned by the French is the plan. If they ever get built...

To be fair, the Tsunami and Earthquake risk is much lower in the UK

[tomtom]

Anyway - anyone care to chance any predictions?

I'll go 56:44 (Remain:Leave)

[Oldmanmatt]

Bugger.

I hadn't thought of this one but it seems we really do import a huge proportion of our Electricity.



I've yet to track down which nations supply it, but France must be a good bet (all those plants along the Rhone).

So, if'n we piss off the people what make our power, does we 'av a probs, like?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JamieG]

I voted remain. I work in Science and it would be an umitigated disaster for UK science if we left the EU. I work with loads of talented european scientists on a daily basis here in Salford. And i spent a spell working in Belgium myself. All of this much harder if we left, in fact i think there could be quite a 'brain drain'.

To be honest I find the UKs attitude to europe embarassing. I feel like apologising to my colleagues.

[a dense loner]

Omm what are you talking about? Pointing out the flaws in that analogy is not unreasonable? My point was that you, collective, can quite easily point out flaws in any analogy given with the question ure asking.

So I.munro what is your point? You've given a good argument which either side can say belongs to me. Leave people "10 yrs is nothing", stay people "10 yrs is a long time, things will pass us by". That's not a dig btw

[petejh]

You know when you say to your kids you have to stand up for yourself or you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up, because you believe it. What do you say to them if they say "but daddy why can't we leave the Eu?" "Leave the eu? Are you fucking mental child? We'd never be able to make it on our own. Which idiots put these ideas in your head? You wouldn't understand yet but don't worry some thick older people don't understand even now"

I love this analogy... but I think you'll find a flaw in it.

[rich d]

 #usepens is trending on twitter. Supposedly some people are worried that if you use the pencil provided then it may be rubbed out and your vote changed - (probably by MI5). 
I'm off to vote in a bit as the kids wanted to come with me, will I get laughed at if I wear my tinfoil hat whilst voting?

[a dense loner]

Only by the kids, very loudly I suspect!

[highrepute]

I also voted remain. I've also found it embarrassing explaining the reasons why this is happening to my Spanish and Austrian colleagues (although the Austrian gets it a bit more as they nearly elected a fascist as president).

I've found it very hard to find people who are voting leave (i'm obviously very intolerant of anyone who doesn't think the same as me) that I can have a good discussion with. My mum just likes the personalities of the Leavers. My mate Ric's new girlfriend just said leaving felt right. It's all remain posters in the windows around Meersbrook. Seen a few England flags hanging out of windows but that could mean racist or England fan or both and they might not even be voting so it's difficult to judge.

So I appreciate Pete and Dense contributions to this thread.

I predict remain and not very close. for what it's worth my mum also thinks remain.

[petejh]

Because they are not models that we can follow.

What do you or any of us really know about what models the UK could or couldn't follow?

The only constant is change and people adapting to the demands of the circumstances they exist in. Countries change and sometimes quickly. No-one back in the 90s - not even the most pro-capitalist - ever believed that communism in the Soviet Union would collapse within two years.

No-one would have believed you in 1946 if you'd said that within 10 years the UK economy would lag behind Germany's 'economic miracle'.

Historians on here will be able to come up with numerous examples of rapid change. In every case people like you would be found saying 'that will never work'.

[a dense loner]

The chances of anyone coming from Mars are a million to one, but still they come.

I could have wrote your last paragraph highrepute, that about sums it up I reckon.

[seankenny]

So I.munro what is your point? You've given a good argument which either side can say belongs to me. Leave people "10 yrs is nothing", stay people "10 yrs is a long time, things will pass us by". That's not a dig btw

It's been less than ten years since the financial crisis and already it's turned the world upside-down, with more to come. Ten years of sorting Brexit shit out is ten years that the government can't concentrate on other things so much, like climate change, or productivity, or improving education, etc etc.

[petejh]

Well in the spirit of 'yes but' that exists on this thread, emissions regulations - or rather the enforcement of - are not an EU strong point.

[Oldmanmatt]

#usepens is trending on twitter. Supposedly some people are worried that if you use the pencil provided then it may be rubbed out and your vote changed - (probably by MI5). 
I'm off to vote in a bit as the kids wanted to come with me, will I get laughed at if I wear my tinfoil hat whilst voting?

That one's a real giggle! Imagine hundreds of people sworn to secrecy, erasers in hand, rubbing the night away.
It's ok though, karma will bite "them" (you know the illuminati or what ever), when they get sued by all those RSI victims (on a "no win, no fee basis of course).

I've already contacted Sloper. The TV ads begin tomorrow.
"Have you been injured at work, carrying out clandestine and nefarious election rigging for the secret Government? Call now on 0800 666 666..."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Will Hunt]

You try telling a Canadian, a septic tank, a kiwi or an ex-convict that they must have a political union and that it must be run by technocrats over which they have no control, and see how well that goes down!
I find it slightly depressing when people can't envisage a UK that has free trade and movement without being centrally controlled by an unaccountable elite.

This is the bit that stumps me. Somehow this word technocrat has become pejorative when all it means is somebody who is an expert in their field. They can only make recommendations to the EU parliament; it's the MEPs, who are very much accountable to their electorate, who vote on the legislation.
Calling them "an unaccountable elite" just makes you sound like a foil hat wearer. This elite that you're talking about is actually people like Graeme, Adam, my boss at work etc, all of whom qualify in a meritocratic way to advise the European parliament.

I don't understand how you think that is any different from what happens in Westminster. The only difference to me is that in Brussels you bring in expertise from a wider variety of cultures - hugely valuable in solving problems in every field from climbing wall standards to water management, to combatting global warming.

If somebody asked my local MP (who is a card carrying fuckwit) to make a decision on any of these issues, and they didn't turn to experts for advise, I'd be fucking livid.

Pete, just out of interest, have you not given a response to this because you can't be bothered or because you haven't got one? Don't mind either way.

[tomtom]

Well in the spirit of 'yes but' that exists on this thread, emissions regulations - or rather the enforcement of - are not an EU strong point.

What have you been reading Pete that has said this? Why do you think they would be any better if we were outside of the EU?

Our older coal/oil fired power stations have been closed down because they bust/were about to bust EU guidelines... For cars, the UK car industry very strongly resisted EU rules that introduced catalytic converters to all petrol cars. The recent diesel emissions scandal was manufacturers playing the game of matching EU rules when a car is in test. New EU diesel rules and importantly tests will come in in 2017.

For air quality, the UK is in line for a big fine from the EU for persistently breaking limits in London and many other UK cities (maybe this is a reason to leave!). This incidentally was largely due to Boris dragging his feet on getting London compliance - do you see him vaulting to make UK super emissions groovy?

[Will Hunt]

Well in the spirit of 'yes but' that exists on this thread, emissions regulations - or rather the enforcement of - are not an EU strong point.

Speaking as somebody who works in environmental regulation (industry, not regulator), I think this statement is absolute horseshit.

[petejh]

Woah there! - I'm playing the yes but game that's all. Nowhere did I say they would be better, worse or the same if we were not in the EU - who can say? Merely responding in the spirit du jour to the Sean's point that we will all 'waste the next ten years when we could instead be working on climate change' - because the UK shuts down if everything doesn't remain as it currently is.

[Will Hunt]

#usepens is trending on twitter. Supposedly some people are worried that if you use the pencil provided then it may be rubbed out and your vote changed - (probably by MI5). 
I'm off to vote in a bit as the kids wanted to come with me, will I get laughed at if I wear my tinfoil hat whilst voting?

The level of outright stupidity that is out there on the streets is utterly frightening.


Pete, it just sounds like you've run out of reason.

[tomtom]

Lost me there Pete...

[petejh]

Really?! Absolute horseshit?
Not recognising and acting on the fact that 8.5 million Volkswagens in Europe were fitted with emissions cheating software and were utterly taking the piss and cheating emissions regulations; even though the EU's own regulators tested in 2007 and found emissions were four times higher than claimed, yet it took a US journalist to blow the story open,  is not a glaring example of 'a weak point' in enforcing emissions regulations? I'm baffled by this.
Note: I'm not saying anything about the relative merits of brexit/remain. I'm starting to think any possible perceived slant against the EU will elicit a furious rebuttal from you Will.

Edit: Why have you quoted rich d in your post to me?

[a dense loner]

Just to reply to the rigging elections impossibility. About 10 years ago the mayor of Oldham was sacked a few or so months into office because "they" had found out that a considerable amount of his postal votes were rigged. Just a bit of light entertainment for you there, I know it can't happen really.

[seankenny]

Woah there! - I'm playing the yes but game that's all. Nowhere did I say they would be better, worse or the same if we were not in the EU - who can say? Merely responding in the spirit du jour to the Sean's point that we will all 'waste the next ten years when we could instead be working on climate change' - because the UK shuts down if everything doesn't remain as it currently is.

That's not quite what I'm saying. There's a limited amount of political energy and focus. Spend it on one thing and other things necessarily go by-the-by, eg we invaded Iraq and took our eye off the ball in Afghanistan. No government can do too many major projects at once.

Lawyers and constitutional experts warn us that if we leave the EU we'll have a massive job on our hands untangling 40 years of EU-infused law. The economy will either get smaller or grow much less quickly, so all those careful calculations about tax and spend go out of the window and we have to try and deal with all the downsides like closing factories, increased unemployment, etc. Of course we'll then be in the position of having to design a new immigration system, technically and politically that's going to be fraught with problems. Our police and security services are going to have to find new ways of doing what they already do in terms of working with their counterparts in Europe. We're going to have to negotiate scores of new trade deals, with just about everyone. And there's also the small matter of re-negotiating our relationship with the EU itself.

Those are all major projects. This will totally stretch the ability of the government for years. Building new houses, improving the health service, helping the environment? Those are going to be bit part activities for any post-Brexit government.

[rich d]

Just to reply to the rigging elections impossibility. About 10 years ago the mayor of Oldham was sacked a few or so months into office because "they" had found out that a considerable amount of his postal votes were rigged. Just a bit of light entertainment for you there, I know it can't happen really.

Shit I used the pencil attached to the booth by a piece of string and my wife postal voted 

[tomtom]

Fair enough. THough it was 2010 or 2013 when they were informed depending who you believe. Its quite an interesting story actually, about how the I assume very powerful European car industry lobbied the EU rules and rule making process..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#European_Union

OK. the EU fucked up there. Whats next?