[Fultonius]

Can you get enough protein/fat/carbs for climbing from any reasonable diet, be it vegan or the butifarra diet? Of course! .

This interests me as I'm 90% veggie these days (if you exclude the large spicy chicken kebab I had last night) and I've looked for references to how much protein a climber training 3-4 days a week *actually* needs.

Meat-head weight lifters say you need about 1.5-2g/kg of bodyweight per day and I've seen 1-1.5g/kg mooted for "endurance athletes".  This is not always that easy to achieve as a veggie and even harder as a vegan!!  My daily yoghurt and cheese, and regular eggs adds a fair bit. So do the cans of mackerel after bouldering...

[Fultonius]

Feel free.

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[Oldmanmatt]

I think, it all comes under the heading of "healthy eating" and you'd be better served by trimming the title than splitting the thread. Too much overlap between posts surely?

Having just started my first real "diet" and needing to lose 10-15 kg, I'm finding the entire thread fascinating.

The odd thing I've discovered, is that tracking my calories has shown me that it's very hard to actually reach my (reduced) calorie intake, whilst eating what I consider to be a normal daily menu.
I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't feel like I've changed anything and yet the weight is dropping.

This suggests that I was totally unaware of what I was eating. Mrs OMM is convinced that the primary difference is that I'm not finishing off the kids leftovers and that my weight began to spiral when I went from two kids to four...
Despite training 3-4hrs four times a week.


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[jwi]

This interests me as I'm 90% veggie these days (if you exclude the large spicy chicken kebab I had last night) and I've looked for references to how much protein a climber training 3-4 days a week *actually* needs.

Well... the short answer is: we don't know. By measuring the nitrogen balance in urine the scientific community is fairly confident that 0.8 g protein / kg /day is enough for sedentary people. For athletes it has been harder to find guidelines. This is partly because we aslo loose nitrogen through sweating and partly because there is some indications that certain (but perhaps not all) amino-acids are used as fuel during prolonged exercise. To further muddy the picture, nitrogen balance seems to follow the general principle of homeostasis, meaning that previously untrained individuals will have negative nitrogen balance after starting training but that it will soon go back to normal levels if training continues for a few weeks — even if they eat very little protein...

You get the picture. People who measure things in labs have not figured this one out. Suffice to say that there is no direct evidence that healthy adults engaging in resistance or endurance sport needs more than 0.8 g/kg/day.

However, experienced coaches and nutritionist for elite athletes claim that for hard endurance training  1.2-1.4 g/kg/day is needed. For resistance athletes the consensus seems to be that requirements might be as high has 1.6-1.7 g/kg/day during a hypotrophy phase. (0.9 g/kg/day is recommended for maintaining mass.)

This recommendations for athletes are not based on first principles, but are not likely to change in the short to medium term.
 
Climbers are imho unlikely to be engaged in much hard endurance training or hard resistance training. Well, possibly both for the minuscule muscles in the forearms, and sometimes in hard resistance training for the upper body. Few climbers do much in the way of training for the bigger muscles of the legs. (When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Oh, and by the way. For a complete protein, rice is about as good as any other food (except eggs).

[jwi]

The odd thing I've discovered, is that tracking my calories has shown me that it's very hard to actually reach my (reduced) calorie intake, whilst eating what I consider to be a normal daily menu.
I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't feel like I've changed anything and yet the weight is dropping.

Keeping a food diary and doing daily weigh-ins are among the very few things we know have a positive correlation with weight-loss!

[petejh]

Having just started my first real "diet" and needing to lose 10-15 kg, I'm finding the entire thread fascinating.

A perfect opportunity to keep your calories constant 'up' at around 2000-2500; take note of your average daily grams of sugar in your normal diet and reduce this amount to the bare minimum that a 'typical' western supermarket diet allows; and see what happens energy and weight wise...   

[Murph]

I haven't got a frigging clue how I managed to go from 75kg to 90kg in the last 3 years.

I don't know if this is off topic now or not but 15kgs in three years is 5kgs a year or 100g a week of, presumably, chub. 100g of chub is 900 calories which you could easily exceed by eating one slice of buttered bread a day! Piece of piss in the grand scheme and easily achieved by eating child leftovers...

Good luck on your path.

[Murph]

Great post jwi, a ton of useful stuff in one place. Thanks.

Climbers are imho unlikely to be engaged in much hard endurance training or hard resistance training.

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

[Sasquatch]

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

Maybe, but I'd guess very few do only that and nothing but that for "training".  On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run. 

[TheTwig]

As a mostly vegan I eat fair amounts of firm tofu, tempeh, various 'burgers' (which are delicioius btw, thank god for Waitrose), soy milk, nut butters, home-baked bread etc. I have a big bucket of whey protein I got a while back that I'm nearly at the end of, planning to replace it with some kind of vegan protein when it runs out

I've never worried that I'm not getting enough protein. I make sure (no matter what) I have something to eat straight after climbing, usually a 'big' meal when I get home and then graze every 2 or 3 hours after that. I used to swim insane amounts and I could tell very easily back then if I wasn't getting enough protein as my muscles would just be incredibly achy and not feel like they were recovering. The one case where 'listen to your body' actually works

[jwi]

This bit was spot on I reckon. A sport where a "training" session might consist of doing a total of 40 seconds of deadhangs, and where "performing" involves climbing something that is 5 moves long has to be considered more toward the sedentary end of the spectrum.

Maybe, but I'd guess very few do only that and nothing but that for "training".  On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

The often quoted 1.2-1.4 g/kg/day is for people who do about 2 hours or more of endurance training (running/cross-country skiing/etc) a day.

[Murph]

per 100g,
cooked lentils  9g 116 calories
tofu 16g protein 145 calories
almonds 21g protein 580 calories

Consuming selected meat and dairy products makes life easier,

per 100g,
greek yoghurt 11g protein 60 calories
canned tuna 26g protein 115 calories
grilled sirloin steak 31g protein 185 calories

I am sure someone will post to tell me that data is simplistic or unreliable, but it is certainly in the right ball-park.

So for lentils and tofu you could hit your 70g target with fewer than 1,000 calories. That sounds plenty protein-dense to me as even a moderately active person is going to be needing substantially more calories than that. So the remainder of the diet could be made up of pretty much anything.

The steak figure is v impressive. It blows the broccoli argument out of water.
For balance against the vegan nuts you could have had cheddar cheese though, 20g per 400 calories or something. But I'm not debating the point.

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

[tomtom]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

TheTwig mentioned aches - are these abs are there any other symptoms of not having enough protein post exercise?

[Oldmanmatt]

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

Joe Blogs: "But I like Pizza"...



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[tomtom]

OMM: but I like my kids left over pizza

[Oldmanmatt]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

TheTwig mentioned aches - are these abs are there any other symptoms of not having enough protein post exercise?

^^^ This.

My problem is, I take the milk in a Machiatto and the Caffeine is killing me...


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[dave]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

Although this is less protein than a single serving of something like a Myprotein Impact Whey, and costs more.  I personally would be gagging half way through a pint of skimmed milk.

[tomtom]

18g in a pint of skimmed milk.. (My post climbing 'recovery' drink of choice.

Although this is less protein than a single serving of something like a Myprotein Impact Whey, and costs more.  I personally would be gagging half way through a pint of skimmed milk.

It's interesting - as give me a pint of skimmed in the morning at home and id say it's a bit grim. But right after exercise it tastes really good. Body - cravings etc..?

They don't sell ready mixed whey at petrol stations either

[dave]

They don't sell ready mixed whey at petrol stations either

Give it time.

[LB1782]

does this seem reasonable:

## Skim milk (pint)

• calories 198
• protein 19g, %cals 39
• sugar 28g, %cals 57
• fat 0.6g, %cals 2.5

##  Vegan protein thing (30g serving)

• calories 120
• protein 25g, %cals 49
• sugar 0.24g, %cals 0.48
• fat 1.65g, %cals 7.5

no idea, apart from those who are intolerant, how bad lactose is supposed to be amongst the sugars.

edit: also, where are the other 42% of the cals in the vegan shake thing supposed to come from? There are only supposed to be 4g of non-sugar carbs in it so its not from them

[nai]

It's interesting - as give me a pint of skimmed in the morning at home and id say it's a bit grim. But right after exercise it tastes really good. Body - cravings etc..?

Protein aside, looks like you're doing the right ting, Tom:

http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/sport-exercise/news/2015/14Apr-Post-workout-rehydration-which-drink-fares-the-best.aspx

[tomtom]

Indeedy. Read in a few places that milk is a good post 'work out' (that always comes with a strange American accent in my head when I write that..) drink.

[Fultonius]

At the risk of sounding like this guy



My usual post climb snack is:

1 x Can Mackerel

125g
17.5g Protein
 5.9g Carbs (Sugar...meh...maybe should find a better brand!)
17.6g fat
255 Calories

PLUS

3 Oatcakes

3g Protein
18g Carbs (no sugar)
5.4g Fat
138 Calories

Total:

20.5g Protein
23.9g Carbs
23g Fat
393 Calories

[/who gives a fuck]   

[Schnell]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

[Schnell]

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%), what you need you can get easily from plants, amino acid breakdowns aren't important as they balance out anyway with rice n beans, too much protein will harm you, animal protein leaches calcium from your bones and gives you cancer etc.

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) so must eat animal products, amino acid ratios for each individual source of protein are really important, plants are what my food eats, humans aren't ruminants with the necessary gut flora, gorillas eat their own poo etc

Yeah I'm interested in what comes up on this. I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?

[steveri]

On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

I suspect even this may be a generous figure - 45' of effort in a 3h session. I don't know if anyone has any actual numbers - not trying to derail, just wondering out loud what kind of exercise climbing is?

[tomtom]

If I'm time limited - I can be knackered after an hour at the wall. Eg breaking only when I have to rather than want to. I rarely stay more than 2 hours...

[bendavison]

On a different level, for many "climbers", a three hour wall session is pretty normal.  Going for a three hour run is anything but normal for most "runners".  In the scheme of things, that wall session may only involve 45 minutes of actual "effort", but at a relatively high intensity, which IMO compares well to a 45min to an hour run.

I suspect even this may be a generous figure - 45' of effort in a 3h session. I don't know if anyone has any actual numbers - not trying to derail, just wondering out loud what kind of exercise climbing is?

I agree, it's easy to kill a lot of time with resting! Even the most efficient enduro session probably would be slightly less efficient than a 1:1 work rest ratio, when warm up and rest between sets is taken into account. Low intensity AeroCap being an exception, perhaps.

[rodma]

Yeah I'm interested in what comes up on this. I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?

if you feel that your diet is lacking collagen, why not just make homemade stock/soup?

[duncan]

Good thread and good summary jwi.

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

However, experienced coaches and nutritionist for elite athletes claim ...

The dietary supplementation business turns over $30 billion per year, promoting itself with tactics described as similar to those of the tobacco industry. Professional body-builders receive most of their sponsorship from the industry. Other elite athletes, to a lesser degree, and much of the research, are industry supported. It would be astonishing if received coaching and nutritionist wisdom didn't strongly encourage protein supplement use.

Ondra, who I'm guessing trains as hard as any rock-climber reading this forum, seems to eat 'food, mostly plants' and says he doesn't use protein supplements. 

[lagerstarfish]

I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery.

I've eaten more Greggs sausage rolls than most people and my finger joints are still jelly

[steveri]

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

Funnily enough I got a free sample of a protein jizz gel from Wiggle this morning. 20g of protein for £2 a pop. Looks to be almost exactly the same as a pint of milk, skimmed or otherwise ...even at milkman prices I know which way I'd go.

Wasn't received wisdom that there was some magical quality of chocolate milk for recovery to add in some glycogen? http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/jul/09/secret-powers-chocolate-milk-mo-farah-runners

[Mumra]

So are Duncan are you saying that Whey protein is a industry myth and not worth our time? I'm confused, can you spell it out for us dullards please

[Murph]

Can anyone recommend a good, unbiased, source for understanding protein requirements? Much of the Internet is full of quite divisive entrenched positions such as:

Vegans: you don't need much protein (5-10%)....

Carnivores: you need loads of protein (35%+) ...

That's an unusually mad assertion, even by the very low standards of diet bollocks on the web. You have reproduced it for illustrative purposes not because you believe it, I hope?

I was quoting some of the extreme positions in both. I don't for a second think all or most of either group believes any such thing....most probably don't give a rat's ass.

[Murph]

And Habrich, didn't mean to miss your intent on the lentils v tuna comparison. But yeah of course no argument with the fact that getting a lot of protein per calorie certainly does give more flexibility under the IIFYM/flexible diet approach.

But this is kind of why a question like "how much protein?" Is such a good one. Let's say the science behind even the 0.8g/kg is an overestimate (it is supposed to include a large safety margin anyway) this could free up those folk who are stuffing themselves with food they don't really want to instead gorge on a nice bowl of plain rice and steamed veg instead

I could go on but appreciate I'm probably in a minority in finding this so fascinating!

[petejh]

I was reading about collagen/gelatin recently and how none of us get enough of it our diets through not eating organ meats etc. Apparently it's amaaazing for joint recovery. I was sceptical because I've always had the impression that proteins just get broken down into amino acids anyway so it doesn't matter what source they come from. Is that true?

That's my understanding also.

Not just protein - almost everything we eat gets broken down. That's one of the challenges of oral drug delivery, I believe.

Astonishingly for some people, worth also noting that the gut has absolutely no way of knowing whether food it digests is from McD's or lovingly hand-picked from an organic farm ...

Well no, just as your gut doesn't know which drug company produced which antibiotic that was pumped into the cows and chickens that were slaughtered for the 'meat' in the McDs...
...while your lovingly organic example shouldn't contain any antibiotics.

Your anti-west coast hippy stance is admirable but I think I know what any sensible person, given an informed choice, would rather digest.

[Muenchener]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

I've hit 190 at the end of a set of stair climbing intervals. I felt like I was going to die, and I suspect training regularly at that intensity would do more harm than good.

[TheTwig]

http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/the-best-sources-of-protein/

http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-i/
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-ii/
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/how-much-protein-does-a-climber-need-part-iii/

Interesting articles there. I haven't got the time to go through them with a fine-tooth comb but generally what he says seems sensible. On the basis of his articles I tried using Beta-alanine and Citruline-malate before a session of endurancey wall climbing (it seemed to make a big difference). Worth reading 

[petejh]

Beta-Alanine is the shit in my experience, for improving time you can hang on for with a pump (didn't stop me feeling pumped).. Cocentrated beetroot juice also. Good for 'other' things too.


Habrich: yep more of a N.American issue than a UK/Euro one (we just eat horses). I'd be reluctant to eat much meat in N.America unless it was organic.

[webbo]

(When I told my middle aged office mate who runs 10k under 32 min [in competitions!] that climbers usually fall off before the heart beat reaches 150 bpm he looked at me with something between confusion and pity....)

Hmm that's interesting, it seems very relevant to the topic. In the trainingbeta podcast with Matt Lloyd (ep.41) he mentions how climbers should increase overall fitness to decrease the max heart rate they reach when climbing, because skill level decreases with high heart rate. Anyway he didn't give a figure for how high heart rates goes, just said it was very high and that people should measure it with a monitor. Struck me as weird at the time.

I've hit 190 at the end of a set of stair climbing intervals. I felt like I was going to die, and I suspect training regularly at that intensity would do more harm than good.

I have had my heart rate at over 200 cycling in the Alps back in the day. These days I can get up to 180+, there is no way it's goes anywhere near that climbing. I wore my monitor weight training to see how high it went 130s and that was doing a set of heavy squats.

[psychomansam]

Protein supplementation is poorly researched and superbly marketed. Whey is a by-product of the cheese and yoghurt industry for whom "disposal represents a serious problem". Turning a threat into an opportunity whey has been transformed into an essential tool for health and athletic performance on virtually no good evidence. Marketing genius!

Funnily enough I got a free sample of a protein jizz gel from Wiggle this morning. 20g of protein for £2 a pop. Looks to be almost exactly the same as a pint of milk, skimmed or otherwise ...even at milkman prices I know which way I'd go.

Wasn't received wisdom that there was some magical quality of chocolate milk for recovery to add in some glycogen? http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/jul/09/secret-powers-chocolate-milk-mo-farah-runners

Skimmed choc milk isn't magical, but does contain the right protein:carb mix needed for athletic recovery, and has been tested and appears to have the same (or better) effect on recovery as fancy protein bollox for x times the price.

Now, I suspect that the extra sugar is less important for climbers in some cases. If you've just done a big wall or been working your route for the last few hours, you'll definitely want to get those glycogen stores topped up. If you've just pulled hard on a board for 30 mins, perhaps not.

If you're eating a banana or other things with sugar in, then you'll get it from that anyway.

It also depends when you want to be recovered for. If you're planning on hitting it again the next day, go for the extra sugar; if you're taking a few days off, then you'll just be aiding belly growth.

When I was running a lot and climbing a fair bit too, I was getting through 4 pints of skimmed milk a day (my main protein source). I'd only bother with the choc after a long run or if I was doing a lot. Rest of the time, bananas etc with the milk. If I was doing a lot of climbing, I would occasionally reinforce my milk with skimmed milk powder (which also made up a large part of my calories while doing a mountain marathon last year).

And one last thing:
Take on protein before exercise.
If you're doing a full day climbing with a  break in the middle, take it on in the middle too.
Then take on a bit more after as well.

I suspect one of the advantages for people like Ondra eating normal food, is that he does the above. Which not only means you don't need to use synthetic stuff to get one giant hit of protein, it also means that protein uptake is more effective.

(On the other hand, if you buy whey, you're subsidising the cheese industry. And cheese fucking rules!)

[Rocksteady]

I quite rate this info from the Australian Institute for Sport:

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/basics/protein_-_how_much

"Numerous dietary surveys show that the dietary patterns reported by various groups of athletes provide protein intakes that are well in excess of 2.0 g/kg body mass per day - especially in the case of strength-training athletes. Therefore, there is little scientific justification for special high protein eating strategies for sport."

Table 1: Estimated protein requirements for athletes

Group   Protein intake (g/kg/day)
Sedentary men and women 0.8-1.0
Elite male endurance athletes 1.6
Moderate-intensity endurance athletes (a) 1.2
Recreational endurance athletes (b) 0.8-1.0
Football, power sports 1.4-1.7
Resistance athletes (early training) 1.5-1.7
Resistance athletes (steady state) 1.0-1.2
Female athletes ~15% lower than male athletes

(a) Exercising approximately four to five times per week for 45-60 min
(b) Exercising four to five times per week for 30 min at <55% VO2peak

Source: Burke and Deakin, Clinical Sports Nutrition, 3rd Edition, McGraw-Hill Australia Pty Ltd, 2006

[mark s]

not all protein is the same.
egg protein will knock the protein from lentils out of the ball park