[petejh]

I propose the 25th December 2015 be the date we change the focus away from celebrating the birth of bloke called Jesus, into using the 25th as the symbolic 'day' (a concept which didn't exist until it always had) of the birth of spacetime.

Happy Singularity and the Breakdown of All Current Models of Understanding the Universe Day!

[Oldmanmatt]

Your survey isn't academically rigorous and doesn't cater very well for non-theistic religions, e.g. some strands of Buddhism.

   This is a forum, predominantly about bouldering, and this survey is posted in the Shooting the Shit section.  It isn't attempting to conduct research to a standard required for publication in an academic peer-reviewed journal.   

The rest of your post is very much on-topic.

Are you implying that you accept a lack of rigour in this or any other context?

You, Sir, are an imposter; what have you done with Slackers?


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[DAVETHOMAS90]

Your survey isn't academically rigorous and doesn't cater very well for non-theistic religions, e.g. some strands of Buddhism. I'll forgive you. I voted, it appears, with the majority.

There is weak evidence to suggest that religious people are slightly happier overall. This evidence relies on self-reporting - massively suspect. When I was an religious extremist I would probably have self-reported my happiness as higher than it is now. But I'm much more at peace now, feel more grounded and have a stable identity without having to fight off the shadows of cognitive dissonance. I take a skeptical perspective, but I still feel massively lucky to be where I am and to be free from religion. A receptionist I intermittently see when visiting somewhere for work commented recently that it was nice that I always seem happy. But I expect I would self-report lower happiness now - after spending the best part of a decade de-brainwashing, since I don't believe that I have to be happy because praise be to him who saved me.

I'm an atheist. Technically, I'm agnostic (I'm afraid Dawkins says the same). As in, we can't prove there isn't a divinity and it isn't mathematically impossible. That said, the chances of any one religion having the one accurate picture of the nature of a divinity is, I would estimate, considerably less than the chances of me simultaneously winning every lottery in the world at once. And it's immeasurably more likely that aliens exist than that god exists, especially as by most concepts of god, god is a subset of aliens. Also immeasurably more likely than the existence of a divinity is the possibility that we are living in a simulation (e.g. The Matrix) (http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html). I disbelieve all of these things.

I disbelieve in all objective meaning, value and purpose. Life is what we make of it. For most of us, the 'we' is very important. Other people tend to be monks, psychopaths or considered as mentally abnormal. But that's subjective.

Life is what we make of it, and here's a subjective reflection: there's a vast amount of work to be done to make it better. Most of this work has almost nothing to do with what we get paid for. Can we live in a wealthy society like the UK, without feeding off the oppression and subjugation of billions worldwide? I hope so. Can we end vast global inequalities and bigotries? I hope so. Can we live without wars? I hope so. Can we live in balance with our ecosystem? I hope so. Can we advance our knowledge of the universe without using that knowledge to do harm? I hope so. These works are hugely important, though I greatly doubt any will be achieved within our lifetimes or those of our children. Still the contribution we make to these works are one useful measure of the value of our lives. And those of us who agree on that, religious or not, need to work together however we can with a focus on what unites us, rather than on what divides us.

The major reason that some religious people are thought to be happier has nothing to do with their religion: it is down to being part of a community. For most of us, forming an inclusive and welcoming community is an important step to happiness. For all of us wanting to take on the aims & works listed above, it is an absolute necessity.

+1

That's too good to just say what PMS said.

[Nibile]

I was brout up as a christian, baptized, etc.
Now I am an atheist and I asked to be un-baptized. Therefore I've been officially excommunicated. Ree. Zult.

[rich d]

I believe in Santa klaus, especially on Christmas Eve after a few beers. Does that count?

[tomtom]

Anyway. Happy Christmas everyone - have a good break and here's to better weather!
Its been a slice. TT

(I think hijacking the religion thread is as good a place as any )

[slackline]

Are you implying that you accept a lack of rigour in this or any other context?

No, but I read Fiends original post which made it clear this wasn't meant to be an 'academically rigorous' survey, but rather a convenience sample...

No particular reason but I was just thinking of posting a comment somewhere with a typically crude exclamation "jesus's fucking bellend" or something like that, and wondering if anyone on here would get offended by blasphemy, and then wondering if anyone on here is actually religious because it seems a pretty outdated and unfashionable concept amongst modern liberal 30-somethings, but then again you never know who is calmly lurking with their faith.


Like the election thread, bonus points for anyone who happily discusses / explains their perspective when it is flying in the face of the general trend on the poll result.

[Oldmanmatt]

Are you implying that you accept a lack of rigour in this or any other context?

No, but I read Fiends original post which made it clear this wasn't meant to be an 'academically rigorous' survey, but rather a convenience sample...

No particular reason but I was just thinking of posting a comment somewhere with a typically crude exclamation "jesus's fucking bellend" or something like that, and wondering if anyone on here would get offended by blasphemy, and then wondering if anyone on here is actually religious because it seems a pretty outdated and unfashionable concept amongst modern liberal 30-somethings, but then again you never know who is calmly lurking with their faith.


Like the election thread, bonus points for anyone who happily discusses / explains their perspective when it is flying in the face of the general trend on the poll result.

Ok, I now believe it's you.


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[Bonjoy]

Brought up Jehovah's Witness - which was quite as shit as you'd imagine it to be. Now strongly anti-religious, but weakly atheists.

[Moo]

Brought up in a methodist household, but then I thought about it and now I see religion as a cancer.

[TheTwig]

I was raised in the very cult-like environment of the Hare Krishna movement (google it if you don't know what I'm on about) and consider myself very lucky to have managed somehow to avoid drinking the Kool-Aid, and then de-programming myself at age 17 or so.

Without wanting to offend anyone I think organized religion is total poison. These days I consider myself an atheist/agnostic/ and Buddhist (the two aren't mutually exclusive, contrary to popular belief!)

I remember seeing a meme type image somewhere that said there was a strong correlation between lack of religious belief and 'peacefulness' of a country, I obviously was typing the wrong shite into google as it just came up with hippy crap on facebook 

edit: forgot to mention I'm a fan of the 'we fucking love atheism' facebook page. Some funny stuff on there sometimes

[tomtom]

Blimey Twig - that's some escape!

[TheTwig]

I would say it was a close call, but it really wasn't. Thank god 

[Oldmanmatt]

Well that provided an interesting mornings reading, I wasn't familiar with the Kool-aid idiom.

Fascinating that you used it with reference to Hare Krishna, a cult I'd always thought of as one of the more innocuous; with the proviso that I personally consider all of it utter codswallop and Cognitive Dissonance over compensation.

Perhaps the connotation of the phrase has moderated over time?
Jonestown was a somewhat extreme manifestation of cult tendencies...

I wonder if it is common for those that fall from the more extreme corners of belief, to swing so far the other way?
I don't recall any tales of defection to the bosom of the Anglican community of half-hearted jumble sale and wedding/carol service/funeral only church attendance.

There are a whole host of interesting groups, opposed to religious bunkum and pseudoscience; The Sceptics guide to the universe, Awakward moments in the Bible, God (Facebook) etc.
Even the devout Christian, former pastor and excellent cartoonist (also my namesake) Matt Glover; now a formidable advocate of Gay rights in Australia and nemesis of the bigoted established churches of that land.
We had had some interesting correspondence during my wife's final days, he and I, almost as if I was talking to a mirror; reversed and yet the same.



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[Oldmanmatt]

Thought I'd post a little sample of Matt's thinking, which, whilst ( I believe ) underpinned by an erroneous faith in a supernatural being, often shows a humanity I've seldom observed in other people of "faith" (add a little spit to that last word as you read please).




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[Danny]

I'm atheist, with just a hint of agnosticism. That hint is probably just an artefact of the daily research grind—psychologically, I never *completely* reject anything. Probably.

I'm more Sagan than Dawkins. Sadly, Richard is a buffoon.

My Dawkins flowchart:

Should I listen to Dawkins? -> No.

Living in Northern Ireland, however, brings out my inner Dawkins.

Although with Dawkins 'buffoon' is the height of it. 'Militant' atheists just seem to be condescending on the internet, whilst 'militant' theists, well, they're homicidal nutjobs. That mismatch is telling.   

[Three Nine]

Some of my more thoughtful 'atheist' chums have enjoyed watching some of Father Barron's videos about religion and atheism etc. eg.




He is a prominent yank apologist for Catholicism. Like CS Lewis in the 20th Century, he's not a very original thinker, but very good at getting the ideas across (IMHO).

Just in case anyone is interested/wants to get all angry.

[psychomansam]

Some of my more thoughtful 'atheist' chums have enjoyed watching some of Father Barron's videos about religion and atheism etc. eg.




He is a prominent yank apologist for Catholicism. Like CS Lewis in the 20th Century, he's not a very original thinker, but very good at getting the ideas across (IMHO).

Just in case anyone is interested/wants to get all angry.

Bullshit-monger poking straw-man arguments at billboards and scientists for not being philosophers. Now, granted, anyone who thinks Dawkins has all the answers and philosophy is dead is pretty fucking clueless, but that's not most people.
(If this post seems less enlightened than my last one, please bear in mind I'm 4 whiskys in already and currently have no alcohols tolerance...)

[Oldmanmatt]

Yep, mildly angry...

Weak argument (based on nothing more concrete than passages of the bible), preaching to the converted and easily condensed to "Atheists are dumb, nah-de-na-de-nah-nah!"




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[Three Nine]

Glad you chaps are enjoying. There's a ton of vids on his channel, usually on interesting topics. Have fun, but watch the blood pressure!

[petejh]

Personally, I find it impossible to get angry at anybody just for having/airing views built around a fundamental belief in a concept that isn't real and has never existed. Angry implies you attach value to their argument. Mildly bemused and impressed at our ability as humans to create fantastical stories in our heads and allow them to become beliefs, yeah, but not angry.

[Oldmanmatt]

Personally, I find it impossible to get angry at anybody just for having/airing views built around a fundamental belief in a concept that isn't real and has never existed. Angry implies you attach value to their argument. Mildly bemused and impressed at our ability as humans to create fantastical stories in our heads and allow them to become beliefs, yeah, but not angry.

Irritated would have served better for me, angry was easier to type...

The consequences of those beliefs and the heartache, war and suffering that arise from them; do produce a tad of pique in the boundless rose garden of my patience.

Or,

To put it another way.

Fucks the tits right off me and back, with knobs on.


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[DAVETHOMAS90]

Bullshit-monger poking straw-man arguments at billboards and scientists for not being philosophers. Now, granted, anyone who thinks Dawkins has all the answers and philosophy is dead is pretty fucking clueless, but that's not most people.
(If this post seems less enlightened than my last one, please bear in mind I'm 4 whiskys in already and currently have no alcohols tolerance...)

Hey relax! Don't worry, there is no God 

Some great points there in the video, until @ 4.50 "our wiring for (the) God (concept?) proves the existence of God .. our hunger proves the existence of food..".

Oh. Dear.

These "arguments" are really not very far from "the very fact that you've been beaten proves you've been a bad boy" and variations on. We learn a subject/object relatedness that we seldom go back to reassess.

I certainly have no problem with the God concept, reflection and points of contemplation etc, but the reification, the making real of the object, does nothing other than serve the interests of power mongers in many guises.

The same occurs in the church of psychiatry too of course.

[TheTwig]

Well that provided an interesting mornings reading, I wasn't familiar with the Kool-aid idiom.

Fascinating that you used it with reference to Hare Krishna, a cult I'd always thought of as one of the more innocuous; with the proviso that I personally consider all of it utter codswallop and Cognitive Dissonance over compensation.

Perhaps the connotation of the phrase has moderated over time?
Jonestown was a somewhat extreme manifestation of cult tendencies...

I wonder if it is common for those that fall from the more extreme corners of belief, to swing so far the other way?
I don't recall any tales of defection to the bosom of the Anglican community of half-hearted jumble sale and wedding/carol service/funeral only church attendance.

There are a whole host of interesting groups, opposed to religious bunkum and pseudoscience; The Sceptics guide to the universe, Awakward moments in the Bible, God (Facebook) etc.
Even the devout Christian, former pastor and excellent cartoonist (also my namesake) Matt Glover; now a formidable advocate of Gay rights in Australia and nemesis of the bigoted established churches of that land.
We had had some interesting correspondence during my wife's final days, he and I, almost as if I was talking to a mirror; reversed and yet the same.



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You are quite right, it was slightly lazy to use the Kool-Aid phrase, as that describes something about as extreme as you can get. AFAIK these days its mostly used as a way to describe the pervasive cult-like culture/belief system of a group, and not particularly about suicide. See Crossfit & Mark Twight/Gym Jones etc.

[fatneck]

Missed this one!

Having been born in Africa to missionary parents I spent my late teens/early 20s being as un-christian as possible but saw the light again in my late 20s and now consider myself a relaxed practicing Christian. Most  of my friends accept my views (probably whilst quietly agreeing that I'm nuts)