[tomtom]

[tommytwotone]

You missed off Border Collie - for me the ultimate climber's dog, assuming one has the time to care for it!

[Nibile]

A British bulldog.
Oh, and Pinks.

[shark]

[Drew]

Tibetan Spaniel

[tomtom]

OK, OK - sorry..

nice pic Shark...

In my defence, I know very little about dogs...

[fatneck]

You also missed Lurcher off the list. Surely THIS is the quintessential climber's dog!?

[Fiend]

SAUSAGE DOG!

[Jim]

which ever is the most accident prone dog, might take some of the bad luck off Paul Unluckly Alf

[dave]

Any dog that is capable of dialing 999.

[tomtom]

Any dog that is capable of dialing 999.

[Paul B]

You also missed Lurcher off the list. Surely THIS is the quintessential climber's dog!?

Fatneck has it, or more realistically whichever looks the most pathetic and in need from the local rescue centre, who were lurking at the supermarket yesterday.

[SA Chris]

Lurcher to go with your climbing style?

[dave]

On a serious note, get a dog that doesn't do any of the following:

- bark a lot at the crag
- stink
- run up to people and jumps up on them covering them with mud and the indelible stench of damp dog
- run up to small children, jump up on them and try to lick their face "just being friendly" and therefore makes said kids scared of dogs for years
- emit a series of aggressive earsplitting barks at each and every other dog entering the pub

[Baldy]

Literally just bought a Lurcher on Friday actually (Greyhound, bearded collie mix)
Hoping for a crag dog that is friendly, but also lies down to be lazy after the walk in... we shall see.

I can report back in a year if you can wait that long...

[SA Chris]

- run up to small children, jump up on them and try to lick their face "just being friendly" and therefore makes said kids scared of dogs for years

Especially this. Our youngest is still terrified of them, because this exact thing happened.

[Paul B]

So you mean be a decent owner and actually invest time training said dog?

People with kids terrified of them, is there nothing you can do to rectify this? Surely someone you know has a giant fluffy dog that is softer than mud. It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life. Nat's brother was like this and still is to a certain extent.

I've been amazed how trainable the retriever was. The first weekend we had him his recall was OK but walking on a lead was a nightmare. This time he was much different after being corrected a few times his recall was great and he was OK on a lead. He even didn't chase the sheep I'd missed in one of the fields (although it may have sorted that issue once and for all as there were two rather large tups who wouldn't have stood for it I reckon).

Again, if we get one it'll be a rescue and chances are it'll be b*t sh*t crazy to start with or terrified of life, or both.

[rodma]

So you mean be a decent owner and actually invest time training said dog?

People with kids terrified of them, is there nothing you can do to rectify this? Surely someone you know has a giant fluffy dog that is softer than mud. It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life. Nat's brother was like this and still is to a certain extent.

I used to love dogs as a child, but when i was about 12 years old one randomly bit me on the arm puncturing my skin through severallayers of clothing (about 1 minute into being patted no barking, just a waggly tail by way of warning). I'm still not alright with dogs as a result and i doubt anything my parents had done following that would have changed anything, becuase me not being alright with dogs is not without merit. some dogs will bite, some won't and you can't tell the difference when one is bounding around (or at) you

i don't have any problems with specific dogs, other than that they're a bit stinky 

[Three Nine]

Get an attack poodle, i hear they're great!

[tregiffian]

The kind of sausage dog that goes at the bottom of a door to keep out draughts.

[Paul B]

Perhaps I made my point badly Rodma- I'm not of the belief that people should consider them all fluffy and harmless, but knowing how to approach one, when not to etc is a useful skill and some faith can be restored via exposure to a decent dog whilst maintaining a healthy dose of caution!

[Will Hunt]

People with kids terrified of them, is there nothing you can do to rectify this? Surely someone you know has a giant fluffy dog that is softer than mud. It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life. Nat's brother was like this and still is to a certain extent.

This is crap. It's not reasonable to expect that at some point during somebody's life they may or may not get harrased by a dog and that really they should just toughen themselves up a bit. If a dog terrorises or bites a kid, it is more often than not the fault of the dog and its owner.
You wouldn't say "It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs some people are bullies and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life."

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Don't worry, he won't bite 



Seriously though, you can never blame the dog.

I grew up with dogs, and generally love them, but the nonchalance of some owners is just incredible.

Lurcher, Border Collie, Greyhound, Pastry/Pink Anasazi mix.

[rodma]

Perhaps I made my point badly Rodma- I'm not of the belief that people should consider them all fluffy and harmless, but knowing how to approach one, when not to etc is a useful skill and some faith can be restored via exposure to a decent dog whilst maintaining a healthy dose of caution!

the dog that bit me appeared a decent dog, my folks were present, it bit all the same. everyone was calm, even (apparently) the dog

I'm not so naive that i think humans are any better, i give plenty a wide berth, but i generally fancy my chances of fending off a human (keeping them at a distance ta least) as slightly better than fending off a dog

get one of the less fragrant varieties, that's my best advice

[cheque]

I used to walk to school through a council estate (it was uphill both ways in case anyone's wondering) that had more than it's fair share of stray dogs. Being knocked over and chased by them made me terrified of dogs for my whole childhood.

I moved out of my Mum and Dad's when I was 18 and on the first evening I was walking to the shop. There was an unattended dog coming along the same side of the road. I was about to do what I'd normally do, cross the road and possibly even take a pointless diversion to avoid it, when I said to myself "You're a man now, you're not scared of dogs" and carried on down the footpath. The dog ignored me.

I've been ambivalent to them since, the only exception being when I climbed in Turkey and a dog from the campsite followed us to the crag. On the way back a band of feral stray dogs followed us and kept trying to attack our friend- when we looked back you could see their eyes reflecting in the darkness  . We had to carry rocks and hurl them at them when they came to attack, like neanderthal times.

[metal arms]

You wouldn't say "It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs some people are bullies and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life."

Yes you would.  School.

Back on track - Get a greyhound.  Loads of the skinny guys need homes.  (Although you should assess your cragging/walk in requirements as ours are too feeble to scramble over rocks but obviously YMMV)

[Baldy]

You wouldn't say "It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs some people are bullies and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life."

Why not? I think it is true.

I'm not saying that there is no fault on the part of the owner/dog itself. But living in a dream world where everyone plays happy families doesn't help anyone, you might as well help provide them with the tools to handle potential problems. And if that means helping them become more comfortable around well natured dogs, then it seems like a good thing to do?

My parents always told me that not all dogs are friendly, and that I shouldn't touch other people's dogs without checking first. Seems like a good idea to me...

[petejh]

People with kids terrified of them, is there nothing you can do to rectify this? Surely someone you know has a giant fluffy dog that is softer than mud. It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life. Nat's brother was like this and still is to a certain extent.

This is crap. It's not reasonable to expect that at some point during somebody's life they may or may not get harassed by a dog and that really they should just toughen themselves up a bit.

If 'reasonable' is still taken to mean 'in accordance with reason or sound thinking' then a reasonable person would expect that, living in the UK, the probability of getting harassed by PaulB's pack of wolves a dog at some point in their life is very high.

Clipsticks.

[Will Hunt]

When a friend was in Chorro, he and his climbing partner were dossing around town in disused buildings. Chorro is chock full of stray, wild dogs that roam around at night in packs hunting and scavenging for food. On one night my friend's partner went to stay with his girlfriend at the Olive Branch and Dave was left to doss alone. He set up camp outside an abandoned house under the balcony to shelter from any rain there might be, and was just drifting off to sleep when he heard the dog pack snarling and fighting in the distance.

"Fuck this", he thought, and climbed up with his sleeping bag onto the balcony. Minutes later, this pack of savage dogs runs right under the balcony where he'd just been about to fall asleep 

You wouldn't say "It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs some people are bullies and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life."

Why not? I think it is true.

I'm not saying that there is no fault on the part of the owner/dog itself. But living in a dream world where everyone plays happy families doesn't help anyone, you might as well help provide them with the tools to handle potential problems. And if that means helping them become more comfortable around well natured dogs, then it seems like a good thing to do?

My parents always told me that not all dogs are friendly, and that I shouldn't touch other people's dogs without checking first. Seems like a good idea to me...

I should have elaborated a bit further. Whilst the world may be full of nasties that it is impossible to shelter from, Paul's post seemed to imply that dogs/owners behaving badly should just be accepted as a fact of life, and started to shift the blame for timid kids towards the parents. The blame should rest entirely with the dog owner; people should simply learn to control their dogs.

If somebody you knew was knocked down by a drunk driver, you wouldn't shrug your shoulders and say "Some people drive under the influence, you could try not going out onto the street after dark", you would lay the blame entirely at the door of the driver and expect them to have more discipline and self control.

[Fiend]

Habrich once again your choice of analogy / metaphor / comparison is utter arse. You do know that smoke particles couldn't be kept on a lead and dragged back to their owners, right?

As is Will's of course.

[Will Hunt]

As is Will's of course.

I don't think so. I'm not saying people shouldn't own dogs, just that they should be properly controlled. My problem with Paul's post was that it started to shift the blame for the emotional harm caused by a badly controlled dog onto the kid who's been frightened for being a little wet softie. Being bitten or jumped on by a dog, especially for a small person, should not have to be an expected part of life in the UK because people should be expected to control their hounds, in exactly the same way that all people are expected to avoid allowing any harm to come to others as a result of negligence.

[Mumra]

[Fiend]

Dogs + owners != bullies
Being in the same society as dogs + owners != being bullied

Also you missed Paul's point, he wasn't implying that being attacked should be an expected part of life, he was asking that in the unfortunate event that someone was attacked, is there anything practical they can do to make being in the presence of dogs more tolerable (because we all bloody know what dogs and owners can do - people are expected to control their hounds).



And some of us dog fans are clearly taking into account the safety of society with out suggestions, hence SAUSAGE DOG being the obvious choice.

[Will Hunt]

Bah. You know that's not what I'm saying.

I would have thought a bigger dog was the safer option. Small yappy type dogs know that they're small and shit and thus exhibit all the signs of "short man syndrome", including accusing all the other dogs who are better dogs than they are of being lanky.

[Paul B]

I should have elaborated a bit further. Whilst the world may be full of nasties that it is impossible to shelter from, Paul's post seemed to imply that dogs/owners behaving badly should just be accepted as a fact of life, and started to shift the blame for timid kids towards the parents. The blame should rest entirely with the dog owner; people should simply learn to control their dogs.

Apologies Will but I think you should re read that post with the blinkers off - it said exposed to dogs, i.e. chances are one will walk past you at some point (perhaps even attached to a blind man, a police officer etc.) in a perfectly calm manner and at that point being comfortable can vastly help (/is a pragmatic approach).

If you're walking past a perfectly calm animal (lets take a horse for example unless Toby wants to ban horses from smoking in a public area too?) you must be aware that the way you behave can influence the situation hugely? If it's on a rural road you'd slow down, you wouldn't expect the animal to able to cope with your chosen choice of rust box backfiring next to it. People who've had 'a bad experience' can react poorly in every day situations which cause issues. That's all I was implying along with the fact that you will not go through life without ever being near a dog (poorly behaved or not).

If somebody you knew was knocked down by a drunk driver, you wouldn't shrug your shoulders and say "Some people drive under the influence, you could try not going out onto the street after dark", you would lay the blame entirely at the door of the driver and expect them to have more discipline and self control.

and yet I'd imagine you don't leave your mobile phone in full view in your car? Lock your doors and windows etc.? Generally consider which route you may or may not walk through a city at night, especially when drunk? Otherwise we'd all be living on the surface happy and dumb not expecting to be dragged beneath the earth at some point.

...and talking about dogs living stray in Chorro is as relevant as Boswell wrestling a shark (or was it Shark? or perhaps a bear?) i.e. rather darn irrelevant.

Toby - a paradigm shift in public opinions and actions toward a cancer causing practice is somewhat different to a well behaved dog and owner, of which there are many.

Anyway this all getting a bit heavy...

[petejh]

Small yappy type dogs know that they're small and shit and thus exhibit all the signs of "short man syndrome", including accusing all the other dogs who are better dogs than they are of being lanky.

You don't the same grade for mauling the postman if you're a Japanese fighting dog though.

[tomtom]

Who's not voted Labradoodle then?

[Paul B]

People with kids terrified of them, is there nothing you can do to rectify this? Surely someone you know has a giant fluffy dog that is softer than mud. It's an inevitable fact of life that people own dogs and they will be exposed to them (even well behaving ones) at some point in their life.

What you mean is adjust to other people's selfishness.

Unless you think owning any animal and behaving responsibly with said animal is in itself selfish then no, that's obviously not what I meant.

My folks' have two French Bulldogs and they get on my nerves no end with how unbothered they are at how the dogs interrupt other people daily - this from two people who owned much larger dogs that were trained amazingly well. The new dogs have none of this.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Two for Paul, although this one is probably a little small for the lead  :



Everyone knows that this one doesn't bite  :



..one that even Paul could manage :-P

[shark]

[Paul B]

Sandy little b*tch that one Dave!

/meltdown day.

[andyd]

Steinbeck had a French poodle. He reckoned it was amazingly intelligent and intuitive.

I'd look at your lifestyle and available space to choose a dog. I wouldn't shortlist the ones you like the idea of but the ones that will be happy to fit in with working hours and walk potential.
Can we split the thread so people can vent about dogs on DDFDs rather than on a advice topic?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Last week I went to a zoo. I walked round for hours and only found one animal in it - a dog. It was a shitzu

 

[mrconners]

Get a Springer Spaniel from a working line. Fantastic dog. Need plenty of exercise though.

[SA Chris]

Who's not voted Labradoodle then?

Who has voted for a pug?? Poor inbred creatures with horrific respiratory and dental problems.

[SA Chris]

I used to love dogs as a child, but when i was about 12 years old one randomly bit me on the arm puncturing my skin through several layers of clothing (about 1 minute into being patted no barking, just a waggly tail by way of warning). I'm still not alright with dogs as a result and i doubt anything my parents had done following that would have changed anything, becuase me not being alright with dogs is not without merit. some dogs will bite, some won't and you can't tell the difference when one is bounding around (or at) you

I was knocked down by a Labrador on the beach when I was about 5. It came charging up to me, jumped on me and knocked me over backwards into shallow water and stood on me. I was put off them for years, but got used to them again, although I still get scared if one runs towards me as you never know what it's intent is.

[Fiend]

Generally slobber at you. Labs are daft as fuck, lovely dogs tho.

[petejh]

Who's not voted Labradoodle then?

Who has voted for a pug?? Poor inbred creatures with horrific respiratory and dental problems.

That's a bit harsh, they were only voting about a dog.

[Oldmanmatt]

I used to love dogs as a child, but when i was about 12 years old one randomly bit me on the arm puncturing my skin through several layers of clothing (about 1 minute into being patted no barking, just a waggly tail by way of warning). I'm still not alright with dogs as a result and i doubt anything my parents had done following that would have changed anything, becuase me not being alright with dogs is not without merit. some dogs will bite, some won't and you can't tell the difference when one is bounding around (or at) you

I was knocked down by a Labrador on the beach when I was about 5. It came charging up to me, jumped on me and knocked me over backwards into shallow water and stood on me. I was put off them for years, but got used to them again, although I still get scared if one runs towards me as you never know what it's intent is.

Chances are, it's intent on loving you half to death as Retriever/Labs generally seem to operate on the "I've never met you, but you are my bestest friend ever and I love you" system of social interaction.

Unlike the fuck-stain Staffie I wrestled off my sister-in-law's Yorkie last weekend which very nearly ripped it apart (and would have if I hadn't made it realise I was going to break it's neck if it didn't release).
Oddly, my Goldie leapt on the Staffie and grabbed a hind leg and I'd have expected her to cower and whine.
She wouldn't leave the Yorkie alone after, kept nudging and nuzzling him.


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[SA Chris]

I used to love dogs as a child, but when i was about 12 years old one randomly bit me on the arm puncturing my skin through several layers of clothing (about 1 minute into being patted no barking, just a waggly tail by way of warning). I'm still not alright with dogs as a result and i doubt anything my parents had done following that would have changed anything, becuase me not being alright with dogs is not without merit. some dogs will bite, some won't and you can't tell the difference when one is bounding around (or at) you

I was knocked down by a Labrador on the beach when I was about 5. It came charging up to me, jumped on me and knocked me over backwards into shallow water and stood on me. I was put off them for years, but got used to them again, although I still get scared if one runs towards me as you never know what it's intent is.

Chances are, it's intent on loving you half to death as Retriever/Labs generally seem to operate on the "I've never met you, but you are my bestest friend ever and I love you" system of social interaction.

No doubt, but if the dog is taller than you and outweighs you it can still do harm whether it intended to or not. I can remember my mum insisting I get a tetanus shot for the scratches its claws put into my chest. Thanks a fucking lot you lovable crazy mutt.

[galpinos]

Chances are, it's intent on loving you half to death as Retriever/Labs generally seem to operate on the "I've never met you, but you are my bestest friend ever and I love you" system of social interaction.

Probability is you are right, there's also a slim chance that you're not, as one of my daughters friends found out. I very wary of dogs around my daughter (2yo) and thankfully she has a healthy scepticism of animals she doesn't know.

[Rocksteady]

My parents have owned a Border Collie and a Black Labrador - I grew up with the collie but have also spent a lot of time with the Labrador.

The collie was way more intelligent, but was a bit neurotic. He was very well-trained and would do all the commands etc. Did have a tendency to range off into the distance but never chased sheep or anything (despite his heritage) - would just come back by himself or if whistled. He made associations and remembered them for a long time. Clearly he was scared by a thunderstorm when small, and would get scared if it got dark and rainy in the day (even if it didn't thunder). He would sometimes bolt off if he heard a loud bang. He was terrified of fireworks and had to be sedated on Nov 5th each year. He would find chasing a ball or a stick endlessly amusing. He was a bit stand-offish with other dogs but would never start a fight. I could see a collie being an excellent crag dog as long as well-socialised and trained to sit still, and without nippy tendencies which some of them have. Although I have experienced the ball/stick thing being annoying when a dog put it on my boulder pad and sat there looking at me struggling not to fall off six foot above its head.

Our Labrador is a very much more sociable, chilled out dog. He isn't scared of anything. He isn't particularly interested in other people or other dogs most of the time, but he is friendly. He is massive so we've trained him never to jump up. It annoys me even when small dogs do this and get their muddy paws all over your trousers. It's just being badly trained. In that vein, Max does know all the commands and obeys them 95% of the time. But he has a wide streak of mischief in him (I think this is a particular Labrador thing) and sometimes decides he won't obey. If he comes to the crag he basically has to be tied up on a short leash, which isn't much fun for him.   

I think for a first dog, a Labrador would be a really good choice, as long as you can give them enough exercise (which basically goes for all dogs).

[Paul B]

The hypothetical dog will reside in the UK not the USA where there IS legislation and a distinct difference in the average choice of breed. I haven't had chance to look it up but there seemed to be an awful lot of pitbulls in the RRG and an American friend backed that up with a plausible statistic. Your area seemed to prefer husky lime breeds?

Also saying something is indisputable simply does not make it so. I for one dispute that a well trained off lead dog walking to heel is an imposition on anyone other than those suffering from acute paranoia. There are so many things you could apply this kind of logic to and if you did you wouldn't venture outside!

I'm currently near two French Bulldogs that are poorly trained, they'll never bother you  or any wildlife as they simply can't be arsed moving unless they absolutely have to!

Ps In your last paragraph you could easily swap dog for child. Maybe the little f*ckers won't bite me but they're almost always an imposition!

[Mumra]

Our dog is way better behaved and less destructive than our child. Just saying

[Oldmanmatt]

Allso saying something is indisputable simply does not make it so. I for one dispute that a well trained off lead dog walking to heel is an imposition on anyone other than those suffering from acute paranoia.

As night follows days it seems people defending their ownership of dogs will always eventually level this kind of insult. There is world of difference between years of experience that no unknown dog can be trusted and "paranoia".

By the way, my youngest has been bitten twice by dogs in the last 18 months, so don't be surprised if I lose my temper at any contradiction of this point. In both cases it has been at times where I have been trusting that the cunt dog owner was in control of their dog.

In your last paragraph you could easily swap dog for child. Maybe the little f*ckers wont bite me

No, they won't. There is no equivalence here at all.

This is intensely unfortunate.

However, the simple fact that that there are so many dogs (8.3 M http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/8423449/Dogs-overtaking-cats-as-Britains-favourite-pet.html ) and so few attacks (200k per annum, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10429862/Dog-attack-laws-and-statistics.html ); within a population of ~68M people would suggest this to be untrue.

Almost 4 times as many people are attacked by fellow humans (700k pa http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11362013/Violent-crime-surges-16-in-new-figures.html ); suggesting stranger danger is more of an immediate threat to each of us than Rover or even Bullseye.


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[petejh]

I haven't had chance to look it up but there seemed to be an awful lot of pitbulls in the RRG and an American friend backed that up with a plausible statistic.

Perhaps that's why everyone in the states carries guns, to protect themselves from the dogs...

Perhaps we should carry guns?

[Paul B]

I think that's so they're more likely shoot a family member isn't it?

Toby it's not an insult just look at the above example posted by Matt; there's countless more like that. You might as well walk around thinking the sky will fall on your head!

[Oldmanmatt]

Another perspective, looking at mortality risks in the UK, last 5 years.





Accidentally suffocating yourself in bed is more likely than being killed by a dog.

Though I confessed I'd rather wrestle my duvet than a Doberman.

Mortality is an extreme example, of course, but for each of those fatalities born of a specific cause; there will be many, many more similar incidents of similar nature with less final outcomes.

The perception of threat far outweighs the reality and that perhaps is colouring your viewpoint Toby?

My partners husband was murdered in a random street attack, not far from where we still live.
I'm old and bold and somewhat "handy" in a scrap, but I walk past that spot on my way home from the Bunker; essentially on the same route he took that night.

I watch every shadow, clench my fists, nestle my keys into a more "practical" configuration and mentally prepare for an extremely unlikely event.

And that's (for want of a less dramatic term) second hand trauma.




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