[DAVETHOMAS90]

Thanks Will.

A guiding principle is just that - something which hopefully enlightens decision making. I feel there is no inconsistency there. Of course, it is not a rule. Disturb the crag environment as little as possible; be aware. Weigh up the pros and cons carefully before changing anything.

I would feel very uncomfortable doing anything that involved fracturing the grit; clearly you would feel less so. I think I'd feel very upset to see rocks broken in order to establish a new problem; I think we can do better than that. There is a guiding principle of crag husbandry I'm perhaps less willing to compromise in the name of establishing a new problem than you are. I don't feel the same way that you do, but I wouldn't want to impose my values on you or anybody else.

As I said in my post, no one would know that blocks had been removed in the example I gave; I thought it was a relatively safe bet; I was lucky. I bet Jon and Ned would have been pretty gutted, but this is a good time to ask whether we're striking the right balance.

I'd say, perhaps not!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Personally I think that some crag modification can be perfectly justifiable if it is done with sensitivity to the environment, the rock, local ethics, and existing routes/prolems. When we do new problems there is often some act of creation that is necessary to uncover the nature of a climb. This might be trimming neighbouring tree branches, flattening landings, digging out a top out etc. Provided this is done sensibly and sensitively then I think its fine.

In the case above, I would even go as far as to say that levering a block out of the way and causing some short term messiness that could be camouflaged by rubbing peat into the newly exposed grit would be acceptable to create a new, high-quality problem

Who is really being inconsistent?

You are misrepresenting my post. I have not said "do not do this, do not do that". This is the same issue that arose with Neil at Kilnsey regarding what's really necessary in order to establish a new route or problem. Incidentally, it was the same when the visiting climber Geoff Wiegand (probably spelt incorrectly) established The Ashes at the same crag, destroying Swallows' nests in order to do so. That was appalling and greedy.

Regarding bolting, we used to say "if in doubt, leave it out" - another guiding principle. That is not the same thing as "don't put bolts in".

We all have to weigh up what is potentially gained against the losses, but the question is where do we set the bar. What I advocate is a meaningful limit beyond which the ends do not justify the means.

I would also suggest moving some of this to a "crag husbandry" thread - which I'll start, if splitting this up is too much of a pain in the bum.

[shark]

I would also suggest moving some of this to a "crag husbandry" thread - which I'll start, if splitting this up is too much of a pain in the bum.

Done.

I suggest discussion is best kept to grit bouldering and so kept in "Bouldering" forum.

[danm]

Last year I was trying Gorilla Warfare, but I couldn't for love or money stop my foot from dabbing on the big square block. Eventually frustration got the better of me and I gave up on it. I then started having a recurring dream. In my dream, I removed the block with a jackhammer, climbed the problem, only for the boulder to topple over. The dream ends with me being chased down to Calver by an angry lynch mob.

What's my point? The point is, that block forms as much a part of the adventure of doing that problem as any of the holds, well, it does to me at least. I'd hate for anyone's enthusiasm for finding and creating new problems to be curtailed, because we've all reaped the fruits of others labours, but I do think that changing existing problems is wrong. That's what my sub-conscious appears to be telling me, anyway 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Great stuff.

Without explaining the context, which is probably unnecessary:

There's a lot to be said here, best practice, good guidance, how to encourage good behaviour, what that means, the balances and trade-offs that are inherent in how we assess our impact on the climbing environment.

Everyone will feel differently, and accept different compromises, or not even recognise that any compromise is required.

What we value will determine where we strike the balance. But that is so personal. There are things that I place great value in preserving, and things that I don't like. Some climbers will not feel that the crag environment is something to protect, and see it only as their playground. I may not like litter, or rocks trundled from the top of Stanage (something which has increased recently), but I cannot say that any of that is wrong.

I'm not an idealist, and for the time being, have decided to go with the notion of there being a "real world" out there that we interact with. Where possible, I like to minimise my own impact on the crag environment, but every time I visit a crag, go bouldering, or climb a route, I cause some destruction. The only way to avoid that, is to not visit the crags at all. But I do climb, so I've struck a balance that, mostly, I'm happy with, and I weigh the pleasure that the rock gives me, against the pain of being aware of the damage we all cause.

I think we all stand to gain from better awareness, and better discussion of what we each find acceptable, what we'd be prepared to do, in order to establish a new route or boulder problem maybe.

As I've said above, I've moved blocks at Stanage (once), brushed rock, use chalk, taken bolts out, put bolts in, placed pegs, used friends..etc I don't like bolts, but I clip them. But I hope I'm aware of where I'm really striking my own balance between the unattainable ideal of zero impact, and damage I'm willing to put up with.

[tomtom]

Last year I was trying Gorilla Warfare, but I couldn't for love or money stop my foot from dabbing on the big square block. Eventually frustration got the better of me and I gave up on it. I then started having a recurring dream. In my dream, I removed the block with a jackhammer, climbed the problem, only for the boulder to topple over. The dream ends with me being chased down to Calver by an angry lynch mob.

Tom Cruise is now going to abseil down from a helicopter and take you away where you will be tried and sentenced for pre-emtive block moving..

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/