[andyd]

Did the removal of the rocks at the start of 'thick end of the wedge' make home cooking harder?

[cofe]

Apparently, though I've not tried it.

Bit of an eyesore too.

[andyd]

Hmmm. Not sure I'm ok with this.

[dave]

https://twitter.com/thedaveparry/status/632605509057691648

[andyd]

Yep. Not sure they should feel too proud of themselves there.

[Bonjoy]

Yes Home Cooking has a lower start point so is harder.
It’s a fair criticism about the landing work. I don’t think either of us was proud of it and the name is a reflection of that. The problem was that the big block got stuck half way between its original position and anything useful leaving a mess and a worse than original landing. The corner broke off the lower block whilst levering against it to move the block on the left. In retrospect it was too big a block, we didn’t have ideal equipment and due to the block getting stuck we had to finish moving it in the dark. There are probably several morals to the story, but one is don’t start trying to move something unless you are totally sure you can finish it well. The ins and outs of what is legit to move in the first place is a different question and again in retrospect this one arguably falls the wrong side of the line. FWIW Ned’s a good workman but it was my idea.

[Johnny Brown]

I think if you can't move it by hand you shouldn't move it. No idea what you were using but bars are going to damage things.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think if you can't move it by hand you shouldn't move it. No idea what you were using but bars are going to damage things.

How many hands? 

I'm sure, I hope, there'll be a lot of thought and consideration brought to bear here, about what is acceptable and what isn't. I've moved blocks - albeit smaller ones - left others in place, removed moss etc. I'm sure Jon and Ned will be gutted about the mess.

[a dense loner]

We're not all fucking hippies, they won't give a toss about moving it. People don't care, they climb on damp rock, banned crags, and move boulders with chain blocks. Climbers don't all go round making love to flowers

[andyd]

We're not all fucking hippies, they won't give a toss about moving it. People don't care, they climb on damp rock, banned crags, and move boulders with chain blocks. Climbers don't all go round making love to flowers

I don't understand your long winded metaphor...It suggests that because some people do bad stuff it's ok to do it too. You'll agree that this is nonsense I'm sure.


Bonjoy. I think I'm right in saying that you were responsible for the eatswood digging too? This I approve of. I'm not trying to incite a lynching. I believe that this was an unintended outcome. I think it's worth this being spoken of though. It'd be shitty if new climbers thought that this was standard, accepted practice. This visual change will thankfully mellow with time.
I'm not on board with the removal of a starting block to create a new problem though. To take out the starting block of the joker to create a more logical start to the ace wouldn't be ok (I realise this is a less than ideal example).
We've lost home cooking in order to 'fill in a gap'. This unlike the mess was foreseeable, and to me seems a little selfish.

[r2d2]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching. I don't know what dense loner is on about, and I guess it's just trolling. A few years ago I watched someone dig out the foot of Sean's arête on curbar, I asked them what they were doing and pointed out it looked a right mess, after they failed to make it work I filled it back in. So that's one person who cares at least.

[dave]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

Bonjoy (and to a lesser extent Ned) has put up tons of new problems over the years, and a fair few of them have involved patioing or moving blocks, and the vast majority of them are done sensitively without any problems. Jon has already stuck he head above the parapet and come forward with a contrite account of this one, which is to be applauded (I don't see the Badger Cove chipper coming forward to be held accountable), and taking the broader view it's remarkable given Jon's output of new problems that this is pretty much the only one* I can think of that could be chalked up as an error of judgement.

Back to the rock in question, I don't know if it impacts on the stander, it's a shame if it does but I don't know it well enough having only had a play on the stander one years ago. Always a shame when a standup problem/route is "traded in" for a harder problem (example being the rock now under Fossil Wall). The home cooking landing does look a mess, maybe something could be done with trying to tame the bright white fresh grit, burnishing it with peat/soil etc?

*Only other potentially questionable one I can think of it the eatswood excavation. That's probably more a matter of taste.

[abarro81]

What got chipped at badger?

[T_B]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

[Three Nine]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

Comfortizing holds is always a good thing.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

Comfortizing holds is always a good thing.

 

In which galaxy might that be?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

I don't think we should relativise this Dave. Bad practice is bad practice, and needs to be flagged up as such. Newbies tend to look up to/be influenced by oldies regarding what is/isn't acceptable.

I think Jon's post is a bit less of an apology than it could have been, in my opinion, but it seems pretty clear there's a fair degree of chagrin/embarrassment in this case, and posting up about it here is honourable. It gives us all a good chance to review things properly, without having to make allowances.

I removed a load of blocks from beneath the end of "The DTs", some of which required a little digging out. Thankfully for me, they rolled discretely on their way down the hill, and it's probably difficult to tell that anything was disturbed at all. Jon and Ned weren't as lucky.

The question which this forum can help address, is what is legit to touch - if anything - and what isn't? I really don't like patioing - but you could say that conflicts with block moving in any context.

The best policy is surely, as always, try to leave the crag as you found it.

[Three Nine]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

Comfortizing holds is always a good thing.

 

In which galaxy might that be?

A one where its nice to climb on comfortable holds not nasty sharp ones. Oh wait, that's this galaxy.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

Comfortizing holds is always a good thing.

 

In which galaxy might that be?

A one where its nice to climb on comfortable holds not nasty sharp ones. Oh wait, that's this galaxy.

I think comfortising holds is most definitely not good practice! It's chipping. The left hand pocket on Ben's Roof being a very good example. I presume you are trolling.

[Will Hunt]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

I don't think we should relativise this Dave. Bad practice is bad practice, and needs to be flagged up as such. Newbies tend to look up to/be influenced by oldies regarding what is/isn't acceptable.

I think Jon's post is a bit less of an apology than it could have been, in my opinion, but it seems pretty clear there's a fair degree of chagrin/embarrassment in this case, and posting up about it here is honourable. It gives us all a good chance to review things properly, without having to make allowances.

I removed a load of blocks from beneath the end of "The DTs", some of which required a little digging out. Thankfully for me, they rolled discretely on their way down the hill, and it's probably difficult to tell that anything was disturbed at all. Jon and Ned weren't as lucky.

The question which this forum can help address, is what is legit to touch - if anything - and what isn't? I really don't like patioing - but you could say that conflicts with block moving in any context.

The best policy is surely, as always, try to leave the crag as you found it.

On the contrary, I think Bonjoy's post is a sufficient apology for the act of creating a messy look at the bottom of the crag. Recognition of good intentions going awry. Shit happens sometimes.
I think it is too simplistic to say that you should "leave the crag as you found it", especially when you say above that you yourself moved some boulders and happened to get lucky with their dispersal.

I'm with Andy though that it seems selfish and elitist to change what is (I assume) a popular Johnny Dawes 7A in order to make way for a more difficult sitter.

[Three Nine]

Someone comfortised the top pocket on BBB

Comfortizing holds is always a good thing.

For once im not. We're talking about rocks - people make houses out of them and stuff. If running one's crowbar along an edge makes the problem more enjoyable then I'd like it to be done please!

 

In which galaxy might that be?

A one where its nice to climb on comfortable holds not nasty sharp ones. Oh wait, that's this galaxy.

I think comfortising holds is most definitely not good practice! It's chipping. The left hand pocket on Ben's Roof being a very good example. I presume you are trolling.

[Will Hunt]

And before what I said can be taken the wrong way, I don't think Jon is selfish and elitist on the whole. Any friend of BeeDogs is a friend of mine.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

I don't think we should relativise this Dave. Bad practice is bad practice, and needs to be flagged up as such. Newbies tend to look up to/be influenced by oldies regarding what is/isn't acceptable.

I think Jon's post is a bit less of an apology than it could have been, in my opinion, but it seems pretty clear there's a fair degree of chagrin/embarrassment in this case, and posting up about it here is honourable. It gives us all a good chance to review things properly, without having to make allowances.

I removed a load of blocks from beneath the end of "The DTs", some of which required a little digging out. Thankfully for me, they rolled discretely on their way down the hill, and it's probably difficult to tell that anything was disturbed at all. Jon and Ned weren't as lucky.

The question which this forum can help address, is what is legit to touch - if anything - and what isn't? I really don't like patioing - but you could say that conflicts with block moving in any context.

The best policy is surely, as always, try to leave the crag as you found it.

On the contrary, I think Bonjoy's post is a sufficient apology for the act of creating a messy look at the bottom of the crag. Recognition of good intentions going awry. Shit happens sometimes.
I think it is too simplistic to say that you should "leave the crag as you found it", especially when you say above that you yourself moved some boulders and happened to get lucky with their dispersal.

I'm with Andy though that it seems selfish and elitist to change what is (I assume) a popular Johnny Dawes 7A in order to make way for a more difficult sitter.

Will, please don't attack my post as though it's a definitive statement. It is my opinion, as what you proffer is your's. I've both acknowledged how honourable it was of Bonjoy to flag this up, and also that they were unfortunate - where other people, including me, might not have been. I've also added some criticism - which I think it would be better for us all to do, whether good or bad, in order to establish a more representative spread of opinion.

I have also not simply stated that "we should leave the crags as we find them". I have suggested what I believe to be best policy. A good guiding principle.

Perhaps you disagree?

[r2d2]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

Bonjoy (and to a lesser extent Ned) has put up tons of new problems over the years, and a fair few of them have involved patioing or moving blocks, and the vast majority of them are done sensitively without any problems. Jon has already stuck he head above the parapet and come forward with a contrite account of this one, which is to be applauded (I don't see the Badger Cove chipper coming forward to be held accountable), and taking the broader view it's remarkable given Jon's output of new problems that this is pretty much the only one* I can think of that could be chalked up as an error of judgement.

Back to the rock in question, I don't know if it impacts on the stander, it's a shame if it does but I don't know it well enough having only had a play on the stander one years ago. Always a shame when a standup problem/route is "traded in" for a harder problem (example being the rock now under Fossil Wall). The home cooking landing does look a mess, maybe something could be done with trying to tame the bright white fresh grit, burnishing it with peat/soil etc?

*Only other potentially questionable one I can think of it the eatswood excavation. That's probably more a matter of taste.

I'm pretty sure that argument / statement doesn't stand up to closer inspection.

[Will Hunt]

One of the interesting things about this is I can imagine if a bouldering newbie had done something similar I'm sure the fall out and reaction on here would have been a lot stronger. Probably some sort of cyber ukb lynching.

The difference here is a newbie wouldn't have a track record of putting hours and hours in developing new problems and routes over the years, involving ground work, crag cleanups, rebolting, and hence still has made a massively positive net contribution to Peak climbing.

I don't think we should relativise this Dave. Bad practice is bad practice, and needs to be flagged up as such. Newbies tend to look up to/be influenced by oldies regarding what is/isn't acceptable.

I think Jon's post is a bit less of an apology than it could have been, in my opinion, but it seems pretty clear there's a fair degree of chagrin/embarrassment in this case, and posting up about it here is honourable. It gives us all a good chance to review things properly, without having to make allowances.

I removed a load of blocks from beneath the end of "The DTs", some of which required a little digging out. Thankfully for me, they rolled discretely on their way down the hill, and it's probably difficult to tell that anything was disturbed at all. Jon and Ned weren't as lucky.

The question which this forum can help address, is what is legit to touch - if anything - and what isn't? I really don't like patioing - but you could say that conflicts with block moving in any context.

The best policy is surely, as always, try to leave the crag as you found it.

On the contrary, I think Bonjoy's post is a sufficient apology for the act of creating a messy look at the bottom of the crag. Recognition of good intentions going awry. Shit happens sometimes.
I think it is too simplistic to say that you should "leave the crag as you found it", especially when you say above that you yourself moved some boulders and happened to get lucky with their dispersal.

I'm with Andy though that it seems selfish and elitist to change what is (I assume) a popular Johnny Dawes 7A in order to make way for a more difficult sitter.

Will, please don't attack my post as though it's a definitive statement. It is my opinion, as what you proffer is your's. I've both acknowledged how honourable it was of Bonjoy to flag this up, and also that they were unfortunate - where other people, including me, might not have been. I've also added some criticism - which I think it would be better for us all to do, whether good or bad, in order to establish a more representative spread of opinion.

I have also not simply stated that "we should leave the crags as we find them". I have suggested what I believe to be best policy. A good guiding principle.

Perhaps you disagree?

Apologies if that post looked like an attack, Dave. It wasn't supposed to. I still think your post was a little inconsistent in that it advocated leaving things be, yet you'd just described an occasion where you'd modified a landing. I will agree that we disagree though!

Personally I think that some crag modification can be perfectly justifiable if it is done with sensitivity to the environment, the rock, local ethics, and existing routes/problems. When we do new problems there is often some act of creation that is necessary to uncover the nature of a climb. This might be trimming neighbouring tree branches, flattening landings, digging out a top out etc. Provided this is done sensibly and sensitively then I think its fine.

In the case above, I would even go as far as to say that levering a block out of the way and causing some short term messiness that could be camouflaged by rubbing peat into the newly exposed grit would be acceptable to create a new, high-quality problem that will be enjoyed for many decades to come. In the picture I've seen the damage looks fairly analogous to any other fresh rockfall, which are just an ordinary part of the life of any rocky outcrop. The damage will fade and become less obvious in a relatively short space of time. My main objection was that a longstanding and seemingly significant problem has been altered in the act of creating a new hard thing for the wads.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Thanks Will.

A guiding principle is just that - something which hopefully enlightens decision making. I feel there is no inconsistency there. Of course, it is not a rule. Disturb the crag environment as little as possible; be aware. Weigh up the pros and cons carefully before changing anything.

I would feel very uncomfortable doing anything that involved fracturing the grit; clearly you would feel less so. I think I'd feel very upset to see rocks broken in order to establish a new problem; I think we can do better than that. There is a guiding principle of crag husbandry I'm perhaps less willing to compromise in the name of establishing a new problem than you are. I don't feel the same way that you do, but I wouldn't want to impose my values on you or anybody else.

As I said in my post, no one would know that blocks had been removed in the example I gave; I thought it was a relatively safe bet; I was lucky. I bet Jon and Ned would have been pretty gutted, but this is a good time to ask whether we're striking the right balance.

I'd say, perhaps not!

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Personally I think that some crag modification can be perfectly justifiable if it is done with sensitivity to the environment, the rock, local ethics, and existing routes/prolems. When we do new problems there is often some act of creation that is necessary to uncover the nature of a climb. This might be trimming neighbouring tree branches, flattening landings, digging out a top out etc. Provided this is done sensibly and sensitively then I think its fine.

In the case above, I would even go as far as to say that levering a block out of the way and causing some short term messiness that could be camouflaged by rubbing peat into the newly exposed grit would be acceptable to create a new, high-quality problem

Who is really being inconsistent?

You are misrepresenting my post. I have not said "do not do this, do not do that". This is the same issue that arose with Neil at Kilnsey regarding what's really necessary in order to establish a new route or problem. Incidentally, it was the same when the visiting climber Geoff Wiegand (probably spelt incorrectly) established The Ashes at the same crag, destroying Swallows' nests in order to do so. That was appalling and greedy.

Regarding bolting, we used to say "if in doubt, leave it out" - another guiding principle. That is not the same thing as "don't put bolts in".

We all have to weigh up what is potentially gained against the losses, but the question is where do we set the bar. What I advocate is a meaningful limit beyond which the ends do not justify the means.

I would also suggest moving some of this to a "crag husbandry" thread - which I'll start, if splitting this up is too much of a pain in the bum.

[shark]

I would also suggest moving some of this to a "crag husbandry" thread - which I'll start, if splitting this up is too much of a pain in the bum.

Done.

I suggest discussion is best kept to grit bouldering and so kept in "Bouldering" forum.

[danm]

Last year I was trying Gorilla Warfare, but I couldn't for love or money stop my foot from dabbing on the big square block. Eventually frustration got the better of me and I gave up on it. I then started having a recurring dream. In my dream, I removed the block with a jackhammer, climbed the problem, only for the boulder to topple over. The dream ends with me being chased down to Calver by an angry lynch mob.

What's my point? The point is, that block forms as much a part of the adventure of doing that problem as any of the holds, well, it does to me at least. I'd hate for anyone's enthusiasm for finding and creating new problems to be curtailed, because we've all reaped the fruits of others labours, but I do think that changing existing problems is wrong. That's what my sub-conscious appears to be telling me, anyway 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Great stuff.

Without explaining the context, which is probably unnecessary:

There's a lot to be said here, best practice, good guidance, how to encourage good behaviour, what that means, the balances and trade-offs that are inherent in how we assess our impact on the climbing environment.

Everyone will feel differently, and accept different compromises, or not even recognise that any compromise is required.

What we value will determine where we strike the balance. But that is so personal. There are things that I place great value in preserving, and things that I don't like. Some climbers will not feel that the crag environment is something to protect, and see it only as their playground. I may not like litter, or rocks trundled from the top of Stanage (something which has increased recently), but I cannot say that any of that is wrong.

I'm not an idealist, and for the time being, have decided to go with the notion of there being a "real world" out there that we interact with. Where possible, I like to minimise my own impact on the crag environment, but every time I visit a crag, go bouldering, or climb a route, I cause some destruction. The only way to avoid that, is to not visit the crags at all. But I do climb, so I've struck a balance that, mostly, I'm happy with, and I weigh the pleasure that the rock gives me, against the pain of being aware of the damage we all cause.

I think we all stand to gain from better awareness, and better discussion of what we each find acceptable, what we'd be prepared to do, in order to establish a new route or boulder problem maybe.

As I've said above, I've moved blocks at Stanage (once), brushed rock, use chalk, taken bolts out, put bolts in, placed pegs, used friends..etc I don't like bolts, but I clip them. But I hope I'm aware of where I'm really striking my own balance between the unattainable ideal of zero impact, and damage I'm willing to put up with.

[tomtom]

Last year I was trying Gorilla Warfare, but I couldn't for love or money stop my foot from dabbing on the big square block. Eventually frustration got the better of me and I gave up on it. I then started having a recurring dream. In my dream, I removed the block with a jackhammer, climbed the problem, only for the boulder to topple over. The dream ends with me being chased down to Calver by an angry lynch mob.

Tom Cruise is now going to abseil down from a helicopter and take you away where you will be tried and sentenced for pre-emtive block moving..

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/