[Luke Owens]

So, the trip went well and I thankfully felt like I had pretty decent (for me) fitness on vertical/slightly over vert ground and did the routes I wanted to do. The stamina training exclusively on non-steep ground worked well for just that.

My main aims for routes next year/going forward are all steep routes i.e. Diamond, Devils Gorge, so not roof style steep.

Following on from what I asked previously about how specific endurance training is; although I feel fitter now It really doesn't translate too a steeper angle. I've tried some steeper routes lately and I feel no better than I used to on them. I'm aware it's more than just the specific fitness that I lack in that my technique is terrible on steep ground simply because I don't climb on it enough.

Here is the dilemma I have; indoors is obviously the best place to train the steepness over winter but I have a massive problem with how much I sweat and my indoor route performance is always terrible because of it. I struggle on steep 6b's indoors (I've climbed up to 7b+ outdoors) not just down to poor steep technique I just end up massively over gripping due to greasing on everything and the whole experience isn't enjoyable and is hard to get psyched for.

Indoor bouldering is fine for me due to the short time on the wall. So I could just hit the steep problems and moon board but I feel that will just get me better at steep technique and strength but isn't specific enough to get fitter for steep routes on it's own.

Would it be worth doing the above (steep problems) and just lapping extremely easy steep routes (so I can actually chalk up enough) so I'm gaining the actual route climbing benefit?

I'm just trying to think of the best way to get better at this style without greasing off indoor routes and feeling like I'm getting nowhere with it.

For example I went to the wall yesterday and was just sweating like crazy 4 bolts into a steep easy route and greasing off, I'm pretty sure no training benefit was gained from this. At best I just about managed a long steep 6b being so pumped due to over gripping I couldn't even think about technique.

I've also tried shorts, vest and liquid chalk and I'm still a greasy mess.

Cheers

[Muenchener]

I struggle on steep 6b's indoors (I've climbed up to 7b+ outdoors)

Smaller gap for me but similar: 7a outdoors; hardest I've ever redpointed indoors is 6c and I rarely onsight 6b. I'm quite proud of being even weaker on plastic than I am on the real thing.

[Paul B]

I think you could surprise yourself how quickly you can become comfortable recovering your way up stuff if you invested time lapping on a TR on those long 7bs at Llanymynech. The first time will feel the living end, then it only gets easier with that sort of thing if have 2-3 days rest between sessions. And it doesn't matter by yourself becasue there's no time pressure on belayers.

It was pointed out to me the other day the difference between feeling fit on something you know (Lets call climber C Paul - he has a tendency to lap routes he knows well for fear of actually trying too hard on anything), can climb efficiently etc. and actually being fit. You're very comfortable on these routes, know when a rest is coming etc.

Joking aside - since moving to Lancs. I've avoided climbing indoors almost entirely (two sessions since I moved here ~6 months ago). I've been spending lots of time at Kilnsey, mostly going for quick ticks but on the odd session where I've been tired or pushed for time I've simply lapped a load of routes I know well. With the season ending and the light fading this has increasingly been a great way to maintain/gain fitness.

I'm married to a belayer so I don't have to date a micro-traxion but when compared to foot on campussing, hanging off rock rings etc. I'd go for PeteJH's suggestion of lapping local routes in preference.

It's worth listening to 3-9 on this kind of stuff, he's frustratingly weak but manages to rest  and twist his way up things with annoying ease.

[Luke Owens]

Cheers Paul, I did a lot of lapping of routes and mileage before I went away both outdoors and indoors but only on vertical terrain. This did exactly what I thought and give me better fitness for this angle but I feel has made no difference to steep routes which I want to get better at.

I'll still be out on routes at weekends (until it's just too cold) trying the steep stuff. It's just the mid-week/mid-winter training I'm trying to figure out given the dilemma I have which I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors.

[Tommy]

Physiologically you want to consider:

1. Size of hold when endurance training. We have in the most basic sense 2 main muscle beds controlling our hand contraction and this is effected by hold size - small vs big. Keep it specific as possible.

2. Contraction-relaxation timing and ratios. This plays a pretty big part in peoples' disappointment from this training in my opinion. A change from a 5:2 to 7:3 to 10:3 work rest ratio in a single arm massively effects performance. Just go an do some tests on yourself and you'll see!! Smaller differences in boulderers though.... (they basically score v similar on close ratios). Analyse what you're expecting in your chosen performance environment and replicate it in your training.

3. Familiarity with environment. This is a thing that I think 3-9 said. You spend all your time on roofs.... then you're good at them, relaxed on them and efficient. Likewise for vertical. But if you try and switch up styles you'll have difficulties unless you're a rock god like Barrows :-). Overgripping really effects performance here, as well as all the psych stuff. For most people, this is probably the biggest factor over-riding performance.

4. Upwards vs sideways. There's a cross-over but all of the above play into this. Keep it specific if you can.

Work hard and think about what you're doing and you'll be fine :-)

[petejh]

I'll still be out on routes at weekends (until it's just too cold) trying the steep stuff. It's just the mid-week/mid-winter training I'm trying to figure out given the dilemma I have which I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors.

Try the new expensive high-magnesium chalk from friction labs. I used up my free sample. I think it's superior to other chalk for staying on the hand and absorbing moisture.


As you say the solution to getting better at slightly steeper stuff is to climb/train on slightly steeper stuff. The problem is finding specific terrain that's available to train on in winter.

solution 1 - you've an amazing indoor facility for training steep fitness - the psicobloc at Boardrom. Just lap that fucker. It's like long bouldering so you've less time to get shut-down by the sweat-monster but it's longer than typical bouldering and long enough to get you fit. It's almost the perfect training tool for what you want (maybe a little steep but hey ho). Ask if they'll move one of those massive space heaters to blow onto it with a cool air setting.

solution 2 - Parisellas. The choice of champions. Work and send shot-hole start, left wall, left wall high. Basically slightly over-vert 12m long french 7b+ - 8a with a roof and a cosy piss fug.


(solution 3 - steep's over-rated and injures you in the end. Forget it and climb slabs with me)

[DAVETHOMAS90]

This is a great thread. Some good points there Tommy. And I especially liked Duncan's post earlier - in particular, because it wasn't number-specific.

There is always a trade off, regardless of how one trains. Effort invested in one area means less time/effort invested elsewhere. Point being that, when you fully appreciate what you have to gain by hanging in there on pumpy grease-fests, that may be motivation enough! The emphasis here is away from your specific/perceived performance in that area, and towards what you hope to gain through improvements.

I think it's a great skill to develop, to ignore the numbers, if you can. This applies to real rock of course, too.

If you want to be able to hang in there on steep ground, but find yourself flailing after 4 bolts, then the route isn't easy enough. FWIW, I love moving around on SUPER easy ground; forget the grade, and as a priority, try to really listen to what your body is telling you. This will help you in stressful situations on real rock too. Your body will let you know when/where you're weak, not the grade.

As an aside, do you have a problem with sweating at all walls, or just your local one? If it's that bad, I doubt you're really the only one who experiences that problem. In which case, getting the management to turn the heating down could be to everyone's benefit.

I mentioned in my last post about being useless/sweaty indoors

The question I'd most like to ask is, why do you place the emphasis on "useless". That's quite an attack on yourself! Perhaps if you were to change the emphasis here to "most to gain"/useful it would have an influence on how you deal with the sweat etc - in fact it may itself reduce the stress and sweat anyway!

Sounds like you had a good trip earlier in the year, so that will hopefully give you some added confidence that you're able to interpret and improve your training, to help reach your goals.

[Schnell]

I've also tried shorts, vest and liquid chalk and I'm still a greasy mess.

Anti-hydral? Should help with this no? (Though I don't use it myself so I don't really know whether it's most useful for reducing sweatiness or to improve skin toughness)

[abarro81]

I would say that if getting fitter on vert hasn't translated to getting fitter on moderately overhanging ground then that's indicative of the limiting factor on overhanging ground not being physiological...

[abarro81]

More generally, RE contraction times, I wonder if this is as important as any targeting of specific fibres in why harder on-off style aerocap translates well to RPing whilst lower end (slower) translates well to onsighting

[Luke Owens]

Cheers everyone, plenty to think about and useful info!

2. Contraction-relaxation timing and ratios. This plays a pretty big part in peoples' disappointment from this training in my opinion. A change from a 5:2 to 7:3 to 10:3 work rest ratio in a single arm massively effects performance. Just go an do some tests on yourself and you'll see!! Smaller differences in boulderers though.... (they basically score v similar on close ratios). Analyse what you're expecting in your chosen performance environment and replicate it in your training.

Never thought about this, I climb quite fast indoors to try and beat the sweat but I should try different things.

Try the new expensive high-magnesium chalk from friction labs. I used up my free sample. I think it's superior to other chalk for staying on the hand and absorbing moisture.

Did this really make a difference? Worth considering if it's not too expensive will defiently try it.

solution 1 - you've an amazing indoor facility for training steep fitness - the psicobloc at Boardrom. Just lap that fucker. It's like long bouldering so you've less time to get shut-down by the sweat-monster but it's longer than typical bouldering and long enough to get you fit. It's almost the perfect training tool for what you want (maybe a little steep but hey ho). Ask if they'll move one of those massive space heaters to blow onto it with a cool air setting.

solution 2 - Parisellas. The choice of champions. Work and send shot-hole start, left wall, left wall high. Basically slightly over-vert 12m long french 7b+ - 8a with a roof and a cosy piss fug.


(solution 3 - steep's over-rated and injures you in the end. Forget it and climb slabs with me)

I should embrace the Piscobloc I know, as you say it will be a useful tool but even on that I'm sweating loads after about 5 moves...!

Parisellas is a bit far for midweek training but will use it if I get rained off routes.

I will get out on the slate with you soon

I think it's a great skill to develop, to ignore the numbers, if you can. This applies to real rock of course, too.

If you want to be able to hang in there on steep ground, but find yourself flailing after 4 bolts, then the route isn't easy enough. FWIW, I love moving around on SUPER easy ground; forget the grade, and as a priority, try to really listen to what your body is telling you. This will help you in stressful situations on real rock too. Your body will let you know when/where you're weak, not the grade.

I don't have any problem dropping the grade as all I care about when I go indoors is training and never see it as wanting to do a certain route at a certain grade etc. What I was wondering is if actually doing mega easy steep routes indoors (these don't really exist outdoors) will help me; which thinking about it it should, as it'll give me chance to work on technique.

As an aside, do you have a problem with sweating at all walls, or just your local one? If it's that bad, I doubt you're really the only one who experiences that problem. In which case, getting the management to turn the heating down could be to everyone's benefit.

I have the same problem at every wall I've ever been too, even in the middle of winter it's still too sweaty in there for me, Everyone else will be in trousers and jumpers and i'll be dressed like I'm on the beach, sweating like crazy. I've inherited sweaty hands from my Dad unfortunatly!

The question I'd most like to ask is, why do you place the emphasis on "useless". That's quite an attack on yourself! Perhaps if you were to change the emphasis here to "most to gain"/useful it would have an influence on how you deal with the sweat etc - in fact it may itself reduce the stress and sweat anyway!

Haha, It was tongue in cheek. I'm a very positve and psyched person in general so I never beat myself up over things (unless I fall off after the crux on a route at my limit  ). I'm never stressed when training as it is just that; "training", so anything I'm doing or failing on serves a purpose but I just like to think I'm getting the most out of my training as I hate to think I'm wasting my time.

Anti-hydral? Should help with this no? (Though I don't use it myself so I don't really know whether it's most useful for reducing sweatiness or to improve skin toughness)

I keep meaning to buy some as it's supposed to stop sweating, anyone know somewhere reliable I can get it from?

I would say that if getting fitter on vert hasn't translated to getting fitter on moderately overhanging ground then that's indicative of the limiting factor on overhanging ground not being physiological...

So, if I was good on steep ground technique wise there should be translation in some form?

Again, cheers for the replies everyone!

[submaximal gains]

Dave macleod wrote a post about sweaty hands and iontophoresis a while back, it may of some help with that part of the problem.

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/hyperhidrosis-and-climbing.html

[bendavison]

The CW in Sheff used to sell antihydral under the counter I think. Not sure if they still do.


Sent from the place where beasts are made using will power

[Wood FT]

I boought some off Ebay, I can find out the seller if you're interested Luke?

[Tommy]

More generally, RE contraction times, I wonder if this is as important as any targeting of specific fibres in why harder on-off style aerocap translates well to RPing whilst lower end (slower) translates well to onsighting

No I think it'll not effect the muscle fibres employed but it will affect the blood attenuation levels and the resultant structural changes in the forearms that occur over time. Think capillarisation and whether we're working the "work" or working the "rest". It's all interesting stuff, but I don't have a full answer for it Alex. Need to read up more really.

[jwi]

Need to read up more really.

If you find some good references please post up. I did a literature search a few months back on this and found less that I'd have liked.

[Tommy]

Yup, that's exactly why it's so darn hard to get to the bottom of.... not the easiest area to research without having tonnes of spare time. If only we didn't need to sleep ;-)