[Muenchener]

Sun: farcical visit to a new route project with the whole family. An aesthetic just-off-vertical arete. Unfortunately found that 1. it was harder than I expected 2. I didn't trust son #1 or my wife to belay.

How old is son #1?

I'm considering trying to recruit my son as a belayer in order get extra goes in on some of my local projects. He's twelve years old. He's lighter than me by 20+ kgs, but I've been belayed by women who are lighter still nobody has died. He has experience of belaying & lowering kids his own size & weight at the wall. He has belayed me on easy multipitch routes in the mountains, but on these I have always abbed off, and basically regard it as soloing with a backup (but he isn't supposed to know that). Whereas sport projects tend to involve (a) falling and (b) being lowered.

I'm willing to listen to advice along the lines of "have you gone completely insane he's far too young?". But also about what device to use for this insanity. I would want something with some level of autolocking, but I'm not sure about teaching him the Grigri - too different from the ATC he's always used so far. And tricky to learn lowering; I once nearly dropped somebody through over-enthusiastic use of the lever when I was a grigri noob, and I wouldn't want it to happen to me. The other semi-locking device I possess is a Mega Jul but I hate it; absolute pig to both feed and lower with. So, collective wisdom of ukb: what device has ATC-like handling with smooth feeding & lowering, but also some level of reasonably reliable assisted locking?

[Paul B]

None gri gri equivalents all feel like a poor alternative for me. The black and green one which the name escapes (it's very heavy) me has something to prevent grab and plummet where it locks if you get too enthusiastic.

[iain]

The other semi-locking device I possess is a Mega Jul but I hate it; absolute pig to both feed and lower with.

The Jul felt like a good concept poorly done. I got one but only persisted a few times before it went back in the cupboard, despite making an effort with it I couldn't stop it locking when it wasn't supposed to.

No idea if you're insane but a suggestion is a Mammut Smart. I had a partner who used one so tried it for a while and it mostly works like an ATC, can be got for single or double ropes and the differences from an ATC were reasonably easy to learn/use. I still think a properly used grigri is better but if I had to get an alternative that would be it. Fairly cheap and a lot lighter too.

[Nutty]

I've got a Climbing Technology Click-up. It's similar in use to an ATC, lowers smoothly and locks reliably but fails the smooth-feeding requirement in my opinion (it's ok once you're used to the device, but I had issues at first with it locking when trying to pay out quickly and when you're not used to it un-locking it can be an issue).

I've no experience with it, but is the Camp Matik worth considering? It's supposed to have a more ATC-like action and smooth lowering with an 'anti-panic' system. Expensive though.

[Muenchener]

I've got a Climbing Technology Click-up. It's similar in use to an ATC, lowers smoothly and locks reliably but fails the smooth-feeding requirement in my opinion (it's ok once you're used to the device, but I had issues at first with it locking when trying to pay out quickly and when you're not used to it un-locking it can be an issue).

Yep. I've been brually short roped numerous times even by experienced Click Up users

[Drew]

None gri gri equivalents all feel like a poor alternative for me.

I know I am the only person in the universe who can't use a Grigri, but I always find it locks up on me. I know about holding the cam open, but must have weak thumbs or something. Maybe I just don't like the fact that you're holding it in the unlocked position. The only alternative which I can use is the Trango Cinch. It never locks at the wrong moment. I can pay out rope quicker than Grigri using mates, it's smaller, and lighter. The only drawback is that lowering takes a fraction more care. Get's my vote every time.

[Paul B]

...and that it requires a weird belaying technique where you're effectively pinching the cam? I sold mine to mrjonathonr

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=489

^ this was the device I couldn't remember.

If you unlock the GriGri whilst still holding the dead end there isn't really an issue.

[Nutty]

Yep. I've been brutally short roped numerous times even by experienced Click Up users

Yeah, I've been guilty of that with the click-up . It's horrible when it happens.

[Drew]

...and that it requires a weird belaying technique where you're effectively pinching the cam? I sold mine to mrjonathonr

You hold the pivot point yes. So? The cam is still free to move thus catching a fall. Much easier to unlock it after someone weights the rope too. Just use the base of your palm. Simple.

[mrjonathanr]

Yeah it's ace, very popular in Spain. And Stockport. Unlike with the gri-gri (mine languishes in a cupboard nowadays) paying slack out to a grabby leader is a cinch (ahem). Cheers Paul.

[Paul B]

I just didn't like it and the technique required (and it's less like using an ATC then anything with respect to the OP). Chances are if you give a Gri Gri to a mate they won't short rope you / drop you; with a cinch I'm not sold, it's just very different.

[Will Hunt]

When I was a similar age to Muenchener's son (circa 12 years old) I was introduced to a GriGri for the first time after using only an ATC and never had a problem with using it for top roping and lowering. That said, I never used it to belay a leader which is something I still struggle with now as I do it so infrequently. I just find it hard to pay out slack quickly at the precise moment someone goes to clip. I gather that this isn't how its done on sport anyway and its acceptable to have more slack out at any one time provided that the leader can go to clip efficiently?

When I was between the ages of about 9 and 12 I was quite happy belaying a leader and catching falls, albeit only belaying my elder brother in an indoor puntering setting.

I can see why you're worried though. I'd really struggle to trust a new climber or young climber now. When I was in that position myself I never had any doubts about my ability to belay safely.

[crazy climbing pete]

As someone from a good climbing shop background, you've covered pretty much all the options.

1. Grigri - new and old, pick which one depending on your rope size, new one works better with skinny ropes
2. Edelrid Eddy - heavier but with the advantage if you pull the cam too much it locks
3. Trango Cinch - not heard much of it but covered above
4. CT Click Up - i preferred this to any of them (except the grigri, which i've used a lot before), also covered above
5. Mammut Smart - mentioned, i've not used it, pretty similar
6. Edelrid Mega Jul - commonly known as the Biner Eater, due to it's slim profile, best used with steel biners or the Edelrid special one
7. any one of many guide plates - not really relevant from what i've read but potential.

But to be honest, having used most of them, i'd suggest they're all as good or bad as each other, with only minor differences. Best thing to do is pick one (the one you already have is probably best) and then get the hours in. whichever one you go for will become second nature with time.

Happy belaying!

[Muenchener]

It would be great to climb more with son #2, who is really keen. But he is only seven. I have taught him to pay out rope from a grigri, and have led a few easy pitches with him just doing that (with him also strapped to a pack full of rocks) but I wouldnt try that on anything where I thought I might fall. And I dont trust him to lower.

I'm shifting my thinking in the direction of getting a bit more mileage in - which I definitely need - on things I'm pretty confident of onsighting, so around 6a/b at the moment. Serious projecting would be unfair.

Having my son "belay" on things I could solo has been basically my approach so far too. Now we would be stepping it up a bit, and lowering still worries me. I'm considering getting a Matik, or one of those brake assist krabs for the grigri - or just a prusik backup for the first few times.

[Muenchener]

Update: we had a trial session at the wall yesterday, just using a grigri with a standard krab, with a friend providing backup that turned out not to be needed. Went fine, pulling the lever firmly enough to lower me at all was the challenge, rather than avoiding pulling too hard. This was with an old, stiff 10mm wall rope though; we'll still have to be careful on our first try with the nice 9.5.