[ashtond6]

Good views in this thread, I think.

I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experience^TM

Thank you.

  end of debate!

[Oldmanmatt]

Good views in this thread, I think.

I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experience^TM

Thank you.

Ok, so in the interests of idle debate (idle debate of bolts? Ha, ha, ha, ha! The refugee debate is less polarised, American Republicans are less bias than UK bolt debaters of either stripe).

Why not, not clip the bolts?

Forget this route for a moment, just any sport route.

If you bottle it, take the sport tick.

I've always wondered, just how much of a comfort and psychological boost it would actually be; as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?




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[shark]

I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends

580 of them are various Shark aliases / clones trying to cadge a lift and belay at Malham.

Comes in handy when I need to block vote the like button on ethical issues to achieve consensus

[Motown]

Lack knowledge of route, but have knowledge of support. The two 'likers' who popped up on my Stalkbook page are Devon based wall climbers who occasionally are dragged outside. For N to use this backing as justification is balls.


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[petejh]

Chalk up another 2 for the BraySyc's then.


What I really want to know is whether Mick Ryan is a real-life person? Or is RyanTroll2.0 a clever design feature built into the ukc forum software for deployment during 'code red' debates.

[Offwidth]

..as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?

In Yorkshire?... not at least a FF7 on a hook on a flexing micro-edge??

[moose]

The threads at the start are on solid seeming rock and the loops are replaced annually by Steve Crowe - so they pretty trustworthy (depending on your trust of Steve's knot tying skills).  I did Visitation and Diminishing returns last year - fully bolted routes with the same steep, slippy start to get to the threads (which are pretty high up).  To my mind, whether it was climbed as "sport" or "trad" was a matter of if a clip-stick was used rather than the exact nature of that first runner (falling before them looked a proper crippler).

If the first bolt is at a similar height as the lowest threads (i.e. only clip-able after a fair amount of stiff climbing), as it looks in his ukc mea culpa, there is no real gain in safety - you are still looking at a nasty fall without a long clipstick - so it seems a bit pointless going to the bother and risking the wrath of those with relevant trad ambitions.

[Oldmanmatt]

Lack knowledge of route, but have knowledge of support. The two 'likers' who popped up on my Stalkbook page are Devon based wall climbers who occasionally are dragged outside. For N to use this backing as justification is balls.


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Speaking as a (now) Devon based climber, who is (these days) a wall based climber who (would love to be) occasionally dragged outside (but, just might have a bit more dwelling in his past); I don't see they have any less say than anyone else?

So, fuck it.

He replaced two bits of insitu gear of one type, with two of a different type (which might (might) be more reliable, but essentially do the same job, in apparently the same place. Changing the character of the route how?

Meh.

He did it without consultation.

Bad. (Quite bad, actually).

There is a higher bolt of more questionable placement, this sounds more serious; though possibly an oversight rather than a deliberate attempt to change the character?

Not good. Solvable? Anyone know?

Mick is trying to be a crusading hero. His FB posting has been vitriolic, personal and not contributed much to the debate.

I will never understand the UK bolt arguing, nor the passion it arouses. It is stunning how both camps consider themselves to be the majority. Since returning to the UK in '08, I reckon it's actually been an almost 50/50 split between my climbing acquaintances and friends, old and new (though I think I sense a greater desire for more sport routes locally than I expected and waaaaay more than I remember from my youth here).


The bolts will get chopped.

The tat will come back.

Or.

They'll stay.

People will move on.

It will be forgotten.

And, once more, the the tidal wave of retro-bolting (that this is so surely the first ripple of!); will fail to materialise.

Wow. I've got an opinion!

And it's not based on some sycophantic love of the Great Gresh.

And, though it may differ from yours, dear reader, it is no less valid.

Nor will it have much more effect on the outcome, because that will be determined by the actions of those who believe themselves to be crusading heroes, with the weight and might of right behind them; at least in their imagination.

Because a reasoned response would be to discuss the issue at the next area meet, where all who cared enough to attend, could air their opinions and a consensus be reached. From which suitable action could be planned and executed, with a reasonable certainty of majority backing.

But no, let's just all have a hissy and call each other knobs; because that really helps.






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[Oldmanmatt]

..as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?

In Yorkshire?... not at least a FF7 on a hook on a flexing micro-edge??

I'm too old for that.

I get frightened climbing the stairs these days....


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[Oldmanmatt]

Ha!

Clicked off this and opened FB to find this at the top of my timeline.

FFS.

Enough already, both of you.






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[Fiend]

Knob

OMM, some good points but really it's a very small wave in the middle of the tide that is already occuring.

That's some good Ryan vs Gresh beef. Where's Ken Wilson to smooth matters over?

[moose]

It's the Yorkshire lime equivalent of Rafa Benitez's "fact" press conference.  In such circumstances, it doesn't matter how true your point is, the overly defensive and humourless manner of making it diminishes you far more than the strictly more at fault opponent.  Benitez's "facts" might have been correct, but Alex Ferguson's response:  'I've got him, I've got him" said it all.  Or to put it another way "never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it".

[Oldmanmatt]

It's the Yorkshire lime equivalent of Rafa Benitez's "fact" press conference.  In such circumstances, it doesn't matter how true your point is, the overly defensive and humourless manner of making it diminishes you far more than the strictly more at fault opponent.  Benitez's "facts" might have been correct, but Alex Ferguson's response:  'I've got him, I've got him" said it all.  Or to put it another way "never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it".

I thought pig wrestling was standard Sunday afternoon stuff 'int t'other Shire, it'd go down a bomb in this Shire, except we can't find the pig due to all the Scrumpy that came with lunch...


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[Will Hunt]

Calm down everyone, Facebook have been reading the thread with interest and are taking action.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34264624

[Oldmanmatt]

Barkeep!

I'll have a pint of what ever these two are on please.

Or do I need a pipe for that?




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[ashtond6]

Good views in this thread, I think.

I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experience^TM

Thank you.

Imo a huge difference. I occasionally struggle with commitment on trad routes (what if I get up there, massively pumped and cant get any gear in etc)
If I can see a bit staple as a back up, the commitment is gone

If you bottle it, take the sport tick.

I've always wondered, just how much of a comfort and psychological boost it would actually be; as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?

[dave]

His FB posting has been vitriolic, personal and not contributed much to the debate.

Odd, that's not like Mick at all.

On a serious note, out of all of this it just seems like Gresh is a bit out of touch - thinks BMC meetings are a waste of time, assumes everyone welcomes more bolts, shocked to find lack of proper debate on UKC, surprised when Mick acts up. Where has he been for the last 15 years?

[Fiend]

London.

[Johnny Brown]

Jens>Ryan


If nothing else this debate has illustrated perfectly why Facebook is an unusable platform for any debate. Everybody sees a different set of posts, bumped up and down in visibility by FB's whims, each persons view distorted by the 'likes' of their 'friends'. It's like using a aerial video of a hula-hoop display team as a sort of postmodern venn diagram. All very clever, but fuck all use to anybody save to make arch comment on the pointlessness of everything.

[a dense loner]

This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it

[Will Hunt]

This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it

Only amateurs carve hearts.

[GCW]

This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it

Tell me about it.  i have the weirdest feeling I've seen all this before.

[Potash]

[dave]

Can we get Redhead in to paint a cock & balls on it?

[Doylo]

I'd just like to let everyone know that there's starving children in the world. And people living in cardboard boxes.