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Fingerboard Periodization? (Read 18708 times)

mctrials23

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#25 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 02:52:35 pm
I always got the impression that 40 degrees was considered the best angle because once you go past that you need to have holds that are bigger in order to hold them which results in less finger strength improvement than smaller holds on a shallower angle.

I'm sure the truth is that climbing on crimps on any angle board will probably improve your finger strength. The real question that everyone wants to know however is what produces the best gains. Doing any fingerboard routine is quite likely to produce results up to a point but if routine A results in a 10% increase in finger strength and routine B gives a 15% increase I want to be doing B.

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#26 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 04:18:14 pm
However if routine A also increases core, contact strength, weaknesses on a wider variety of holds and gives you only slightly smaller finger strength gains, then it could be seen to be more useful in improving overall.

I do think for targetting specific weaknesses in finger strength though, nothing beats the fingerboard
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:29:27 pm by PipeSmoke »

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#27 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 04:26:18 pm
I'd question the original idea. The way I understood things is it's all about strength for fingers and fitness for forearms but happy to be shown wrong. What the O.P. seems to be suggesting is that the finger structure suffers from an energy-system type failure mechanism during hard climbing.

The forearm muscles suffer from an energy-system failure, i.e. the mass of forearm muscle not being able to efficiently contract due to its inability to clear away waste product built up during anerobic muscle contractions (and depletion of limited store of ATP etc. etc.).

The finger's role in failure is the tendons not being strong enough to exert sufficient force (force produced by forearm muscle contractions) onto small holds.

Different reasons for failure = different training emphasis.

So I'd question the usefullness of training fingers like forearms i.e. endurance-strength-strength endurance.

Interesting, my impression is that finger's role in failure is equally a result of muscle not being strong enough. I don't have any evidence other than the commonly stated position that finger injuries occur because muscle strength develops faster than tendon strength. On this basis: muscle exerts force and tendons transmit it but sometimes fail by tearing rather than letting go. Interested to hear what people know/think about this.

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#28 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 05:23:11 pm
Most of the plans I have seen sacrifice climbing for fingerboarding. Perhaps 2 fingerboard sessions a week and one climbing.

Anyone who sacrifices two climbing sessions a week for finger boarding doesn't want to become better at climbing.
(Or is doing more than 5 sessions of climbing/week anyway)

I have limited time to boulder and a fingerboard at home so I often fingerboard after bouldering to target finger strength specifically.

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#29 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 05:27:31 pm
I don't quite understand your post Pete. If I do a long set of repeaters with short rests I fail because the finger flexors are pumped to buggery. It's definitely possible to train all types of things on fingerboards (inc. aerocap, aero pow etc), even if it's not ideal (because it's boring, it doesn't teach you to climb when pumped, the suty cycle is going to be a bit different etc). I've done quite a lot of it before when struggling with injuries and then had my best ever onsight trip on the back of it...

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#30 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 05:45:08 pm
I always got the impression that 40 degrees was considered the best angle because once you go past that you need to have holds that are bigger in order to hold them which results in less finger strength improvement than smaller holds on a shallower angle.

I think optimal angle is going to be a combination of current strength and goals.  If your goals are all vert and off vert stuff, thenobviously a 50 isn't really what you need.  Also, I'd say you should be able to reasonably ladder up the board on something in the 1 pad size.  If you're on two pads its a jug and not finger training. 

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#31 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 06:19:01 pm
Alex - yeah I know you can successfully train the different facets of fitness, as well as strength, on a fingerboard - at a push and perhaps as a second-best option like you say. That wasn't really what I meant.

But what I thought the OP means/was asking (?) is: why don't people break down the finger-strength phase of the training plan into a periodised series itself, like mini periodised phases within a phase. So you'd do finger 'endurance', finger 'strength', finger 'power' etc. all on the fingerboard.

When I'm training 'endurance' (at whatever intensity) I'm foremost training my forearms' ability to contract strongly and efficiently under various different workloads depending on the type of endurance/PE; not my fingers' ability to transmit force. When I'm training strength vice-versa. So it seems to me ineffective to try to train finger 'endurance' instead of pure finger strength.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 06:26:25 pm by petejh »

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#32 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 11:37:45 pm
I would like to know the difference between fingers' strength and fingers' power.

kelvin

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#33 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 07, 2015, 11:49:20 pm
I would like to know the difference between fingers' strength and fingers' power.

This is strength



This is finger power


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#34 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 01:10:42 am
That picture is interesting.  Maybe it is just me, or the angle of the photo, but it looks like your right side is over developed.  I struggle with having a slightly over developed left side.  Do you notice a difference in one-arm hangs (if you do them)?

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#35 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 01:36:01 am
Would finger power be where you hit a hold and go from open to crimp? Always wondered about that one

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#36 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 08:24:25 am
Personally I think that the value of fingerboarding is for max strength training and finger endurance work are better worked elsewhere by climbing at the wall or crag on routes or long boulder problems or systems board. If you dont have easy access to wall / crag then periodising on the fingerboard does make sense as a poor alternative.

My take on fingerboarding periodisation is the following:

1. Hypertrophy phase followed by max strength recruitment phase as endorsed by Stu Littlefair
2. Max hangs with weight followed by minimum edge without weight as illustrated by Eva Lopez
3. Max hangs with weight till progress flattens or other activities / trips get in the way as followed by me

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#37 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 08:47:30 am
Personally I think that the value of fingerboarding is for max strength training and finger endurance work are better worked elsewhere by climbing at the wall or crag on routes or long boulder problems or systems board. If you dont have easy access to wall / crag then periodising on the fingerboard does make sense as a poor alternative.

My take on fingerboarding periodisation is the following:

1. Hypertrophy phase followed by max strength recruitment phase as endorsed by Stu Littlefair
2. Max hangs with weight followed by minimum edge without weight as illustrated by Eva Lopez
3. Max hangs with weight till progress flattens or other activities / trips get in the way as followed by me


Seeing as I have no interest in doing the Oak, I reckon 3 would be ideal for me. Fuelled by some between-meals museli with honey and yoghurt.

abarro81

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#38 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 09:03:26 am
But what I thought the OP means/was asking (?) is: why don't people break down the finger-strength phase of the training plan into a periodised series itself, like mini periodised phases within a phase. So you'd do finger 'endurance', finger 'strength', finger 'power' etc. all on the fingerboard.

Ah right, I misunderstood. Yeah, there's no point breaking a strength training program down into bits with endurance in.

As a slight aside, I've tried using the Anderson's fingerboard routine once per week recently. I liked it, although it's quite submaximal for a strength workout. Very ancapy, for those that ancap.

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#39 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 10:32:24 am
A guy once gave me the finger on the internet. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

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#40 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 10:50:24 am
I have to admit that I really struggle in understanding what this topic is about, and judging from all the random replies it's had, I think I'm not alone.
What the OP refers to, in my opinion is more related to cycling the training of different qualities.
I've always thought that periodization revolvs around the idea of setting the load/deload/supercompensation phases of a single quality, in order to peak that quality at a certain moment (competition, roadtrip, project in conditions, etc).
I don't think it's a good idea to break a strength phase to mix it up with endurance, etc.

On a side note.
I get the impression that many posts about fingerboarding are looking for a quick fix, a hat trick to fight a plateau or tick a problem, to then stop fingerboarding as soon as possible. The small programs that have been listed in this discussion, are about 9 weeks long, with 3 weeks of strength phase.
Are you kidding me?
3 weeks are nothing, the gains will be just nervous adaption and they will be gone in 3 weeks.
One serious fingerboarding session per month year after year, will do much more than small cycles whose gains are going to be lost in exactly the same time of the cycle.
Every climber who doesn't want to fingerboard is missing out an important aspect of climbing ability. It's a matter of potential. Being able to one arm small edges will always represent a higher potential than being not. As for every ability (core tension, big muscles, technique, PE, endurance, mind games, etc.) there's no reason to suck at it.

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#41 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 11:17:32 am
its like the great man said. Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights.

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#42 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 11:27:13 am
 ;D
"I'll do it though."

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#43 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 12:49:18 pm
On a side note.
I get the impression that many posts about fingerboarding are looking for a quick fix, a hat trick to fight a plateau or tick a problem, to then stop fingerboarding as soon as possible. The small programs that have been listed in this discussion, are about 9 weeks long, with 3 weeks of strength phase.
Are you kidding me?
3 weeks are nothing, the gains will be just nervous adaption and they will be gone in 3 weeks.
One serious fingerboarding session per month year after year, will do much more than small cycles whose gains are going to be lost in exactly the same time of the cycle.
Every climber who doesn't want to fingerboard is missing out an important aspect of climbing ability. It's a matter of potential. Being able to one arm small edges will always represent a higher potential than being not. As for every ability (core tension, big muscles, technique, PE, endurance, mind games, etc.) there's no reason to suck at it.

That's why we aren't all beasting 9a+s and font 8Cs - because time and energy are finite and projects are varied and you can't be good at every aspect at all times like some quantum wad-particle.

I think if you've naturally got good finger tendon strength (I have, relatively) then a 3-4 week top-up every 10-12 weeks is more than adequate for mid-8 sport climbing. If your weakness is being weak then yeah like you say the strength gains need a longer time to accumulate.
Luckily fitness is piss to gain :)

Luke Owens

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#44 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 08, 2015, 07:17:50 pm
Luckily fitness is piss to gain :)

 ::)

rjtrials

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#45 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 09, 2015, 08:47:30 pm
I have to admit that I really struggle in understanding what this topic is about, and judging from all the random replies it's had, I think I'm not alone.
What the OP refers to, in my opinion is more related to cycling the training of different qualities.
I've always thought that periodization revolvs around the idea of setting the load/deload/supercompensation phases of a single quality, in order to peak that quality at a certain moment (competition, roadtrip, project in conditions, etc).
I don't think it's a good idea to break a strength phase to mix it up with endurance, etc.

It seems most people reach a plateau in their fingerboarding between 6-10 sessions.  It isnt that difficult to squeeze one quality session in per week, even if you are climbing on rocks 5 or 6 days.  So roughly six weeks till a plateau.  My thought was to try the different approaches to fingerboarding in cadence with the natural power->endurance cycles that the body goes through. 
It doesnt seem that there is information with this approach, which is surprising, and since this is the best forum for real climber talk, i thought it would be interesting to let everyone here hash it out...

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#46 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 10, 2015, 12:02:18 am
It's a limit of mine, I admit it, but I struggle with the concept of training other qualities than pure strength on a fingerboard. Or on any other training tool.
Thanks for the clarification.

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#47 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 10, 2015, 12:12:29 pm
It seems most people reach a plateau in their fingerboarding between 6-10 sessions. 

Is that a recruitment plateau though after which you work towards small incremental "proper" strength gains

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#48 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 10, 2015, 12:56:05 pm
I have to admit that I really struggle in understanding what this topic is about, and judging from all the random replies it's had, I think I'm not alone.
What the OP refers to, in my opinion is more related to cycling the training of different qualities.
I've always thought that periodization revolvs around the idea of setting the load/deload/supercompensation phases of a single quality, in order to peak that quality at a certain moment (competition, roadtrip, project in conditions, etc).
I don't think it's a good idea to break a strength phase to mix it up with endurance, etc.

On a side note.
I get the impression that many posts about fingerboarding are looking for a quick fix, a hat trick to fight a plateau or tick a problem, to then stop fingerboarding as soon as possible. The small programs that have been listed in this discussion, are about 9 weeks long, with 3 weeks of strength phase.
Are you kidding me?
3 weeks are nothing, the gains will be just nervous adaption and they will be gone in 3 weeks.
One serious fingerboarding session per month year after year, will do much more than small cycles whose gains are going to be lost in exactly the same time of the cycle.
Every climber who doesn't want to fingerboard is missing out an important aspect of climbing ability. It's a matter of potential. Being able to one arm small edges will always represent a higher potential than being not. As for every ability (core tension, big muscles, technique, PE, endurance, mind games, etc.) there's no reason to suck at it.

 :clap2:  Spot on
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 01:10:36 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

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#49 Re: Fingerboard Periodization?
July 10, 2015, 01:13:43 pm
its like the great man said. Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights.

Ditto  :yes:

 

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