[Dave Flanagan]

Was wondering what the general consensus is on closed (bouldering) projects?
Is it the done thing any more? Do people respect it?

[fatneck]

Personally, I'm fine with it. If someone's put the time and effort in to clean/prep a line then they should have be given time to climb it. The issue then is, what is a reasonable amount of time!? A certain gorge based North Wales sport route springs to mind...

[slackline]

You surely need some method of letting others know a project is closed.

Without in situ aspirant first ascentionist there is nothing to distinguish a cleaned line that has been ascended from one that hasn't and anyone questing for new rock could come across an obviously cleaned line and know nothing of its project/already ascended status (guidebooks become outdated and don't always contain everything) and do it without any knowledge that it is a closed project.

Thus its not disrespectful to climb a closed project if you didn't know it was closed in the first place.

Perhaps one approach might be to have an online database a la peakboundering.info and list projects on crags and have a shortcut that lists all closed (and open) projects.  Although that system is itself open to abuse should someone come along and be looking to get some First Ascents as they would then have a list of things to go and try and purposefully choose to ignore the status of any project.

[Dave Flanagan]

I suppose that usually it's a word of mouth thing. Obviously this isn't very effective and I'm that many closed projects have been climbed through ignorance of their status.

But would it be fair to say that the closed project idea is generally accepted in the UK?

[jwi]

(I'm not based in UK, but have done a fair amount of development of bouldering areas/climbing areas.)

I do not respect closed boulder projects. They are ridiculous.

How would you stop someone who's just walking around without a guide, just climbing anything that strike her fancy to climb a closed project? Put up a sign?

“Closed projects” can only apply to hard-ish problems (for the area) in locals-only areas, in which case I'd recommend the cleaner to do some introspection.

Secret areas are a better solution for people who don't like “competition”. Develop the entire area and “win” all fa before telling the world about the area.

[slackline]

I have enough trouble climbing long established problems and have therefore never given it any thought.  I just thought that the above is an obvious problem.

[Dave Flanagan]

I think one of the main advantages of closed problems is that discourage secret areas, so rather than a developer keeping a whole area secret they can spill the beans and just say listen I've been working this thing for ages will you please stay off it.

[Rocksteady]

Interesting question because I'm not sure of my answer. I'm not local to any climbing areas so unlikely to come across this in practice. Certainly with a route that someone has gone to the effort of equipping I find it easy to respect a closed status, for a certain amount of time (a year or two?)

But a boulder? I guess I don't know how much effort goes into cleaning a discovered boulder - is it a day's work, several days, a week? Is the effort put in/benefit to the climbing community proportionate to the 'harm' of imposing on other people not to follow their inclination to try it?

I think with boulders my inclination is not to respect a closed project, unless that person is a friend or showed me the boulder in the first place - i.e. I have a personal relationship with them that makes it 'dishonourable' to bag their project. Otherwise, if you're not good enough to do it quickly, get better quickly, or accept that someone who is a better climber than you will bag it first? It doesn't mean you don't get to do it, just that you don't get to name it. Doesn't seem that important to me.

[a dense loner]

+1

[dave]

If someone has sacrificed time/effort/sessions in cleaning, brushing, gardening, reinforcing holds, patioing a landing, that sort of thing (i.e. stuff that has made the problem a possibility at all, a bit like bolting a sport route), then it's only reasonable that they should be given first crack of the whip. That is however assuming that the problem is reasonably within the grasp of the cleaner. I.e. not a 7a climber cleaning up a font 8c project, that would be assumed to be a public service gesture.

Also, if a 7a climber has brushed up a 7a project that would mean quite a lot to them and an 8a climber nips in and does it first, then that would probably be regarded as a bit tight.

Of course if you're out and just stumble upon a cleaned and chalked problem that isn't in a guidebook then you're going to try it and assume its already been done. Tends not to be an issue in practice, as projects that are very accessible/amenable they tend to be done shortly after being cleaned anyway.

[cha1n]

I'd say it depends on the effort put into getting the boulder into a climbable state and also location.

When I was bouldering in La Pedriza, there were 100's or 1000's of FAs to be done, so you didn't feel too bad ticking a few of them even though you hadn't cleaned them but if it was a rare find then that's a different story in my opinion. The locals would clean the boulders in the summer when it was too hot to climb them.

I remember a minor incident at Huntsham for the FA of Hunter's roof (8A ish). I believe that Cailean Harker started trying it first and James Squire started trying it after. I few people were saying that James shouldn't be trying it* because it was Cailean's project but fuck that. It didn't look like it needed any cleaning and it was an obvious line, smack bang in the middle of an established (ish) wall.

*I have no idea if Cailean himself was pissed off.

[Dave Flanagan]

Certainly for routes I think it makes a lot of sense. With the FA being the reward for the often fairly significant effort of equipping/cleaning.

I would say that the majority of problems could be cleaned up ready to climb in less than 30 minutes. There are exceptions, extensive landings may need to built or the rock might be really filthy but in general I don't think cleaning one problem is a bit hassle.

The closed project thing is particularly difficult when the problem isn't very difficulty and there may be lots of people who could do it fairly easy. But I think there is something to be said for allowing climbers who aren't at the cutting edge a chance to have do a FA at their limit, they will probably get a lot more out of it then some wad who does it second go anyway.

[tomtom]

I'd say it depends on the effort put into getting the boulder into a climbable state and also location.

When I was bouldering in La Pedriza, there were 100's or 1000's of FAs to be done, so you didn't feel too bad ticking a few of them even though you hadn't cleaned them but if it was a rare find then that's a different story in my opinion. The locals would clean the boulders in the summer when it was too hot to climb them.

A good point - if there are loads of problems to go at - whats the big deal. But in the virgin rock starved Peak District (for example) thats not really the case...

[Doylo]

I don't believe in closed projects for bouldering. You can ask people to leave it for you and usually they will but you can't bagsy them. Sport climbing is different.

[Dave Flanagan]

You can ask people to leave it for you

Is that not what a closed project is? All you can ever do is ask.

[Doylo]

Well I guess all you can do is ask. But you can't expect someone not to do it. Whereas on a bolt route you can.

[andy popp]

This question is pertinent for me at the moment. As readers of Power Club might have spotted, I'm trying a project at the moment (it's in the roadside quarry at Harmers Wood). It was filthy and has taken multiple days to clean (and I will have to dig the top out a bit, which I've yet to do); it will be hard for the area at what is basically a local's crag; it is feasible for me but very challenging and will have personal significance (but there are many people for whom it would be pretty trivial); I'm actively trying it and am making progress; I've several times offered to show others other cleaned local projects that I think might be too hard for me. Given all the above it seems reasonable for me to hope that anyone who knows I cleaned and am trying it to respect that and leave it for a while. That isn't bagsying it, or declaring it closed - obviously that is meaningless - but nor does it seem that much to ask.

Then again, its about 25 foot so maybe its a route and I can declare it closed 

[dave]

The ideal project would be one that jump starts to a wobbly limestone jug that the projecter removes and takes with them and only gets glued in place once they've made the first ascent.

[fatneck]

This question is pertinent for me at the moment.

I actually had you in mind when I wrote my post earlier Andy!

[remus]

I don't think it's so different to routes really.

If you put in a bit of effort to get the line in a climbable state it's reasonable that you should have a decent shot at getting the FA. In most cases the effort to make it climbable is relatively small so you should get correspondingly less time to get it done before it's opened up.

Of course it's all basically just a respect thing so i don't think it's worth getting angry if some poor guidebook-less local stumbles upon your project and flashes it.

[slackline]

Thus in essence its a nice idea to respect peoples projects, pragmatically though its virtually impossible to enforce outside your circle of friends.

[iain]

Then again, its about 25 foot so maybe its a route and I can declare it closed 

That's easy then, put a bolt in it

Respect for the cleaner/equiper should give them a reasonable time to do it. But what's a reasonable time?

I have friend who had many long term projects. One person's solution was to climb with them, ask if they could have a look at a project (many years after it was bolted) climb through the crux and then ask 'can I top it out?'.
That might have only worked once.

[Muenchener]

Then again, its about 25 foot so maybe its a route and I can declare it closed 

Bolt in, red ribbon on the bolt, job done.

[bigtuboflard]

Then again, its about 25 foot so maybe its a route and I can declare it closed 

Bolt in, red ribbon on the bolt, job done.

Or as an alternative on a project I recall at Kilnsey way back, bolt a sizeable saucepan to one of the bolts near the crux.

[Jaspersharpe]

Or smear vaseline all over the holds.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Interesting question because I'm not sure of my answer. I'm not local to any climbing areas so unlikely to come across this in practice. Certainly with a route that someone has gone to the effort of equipping I find it easy to respect a closed status, for a certain amount of time (a year or two?)

But a boulder? I guess I don't know how much effort goes into cleaning a discovered boulder - is it a day's work, several days, a week? Is the effort put in/benefit to the climbing community proportionate to the 'harm' of imposing on other people not to follow their inclination to try it?

I think with boulders my inclination is not to respect a closed project, unless that person is a friend or showed me the boulder in the first place - i.e. I have a personal relationship with them that makes it 'dishonourable' to bag their project. Otherwise, if you're not good enough to do it quickly, get better quickly, or accept that someone who is a better climber than you will bag it first? It doesn't mean you don't get to do it, just that you don't get to name it. Doesn't seem that important to me.

Some agreement here.

I feel there are no rules here, just personal judgement/consequences.

I also don't think there is a fixed distinction between routes and boulders. There are too many variables. Some boulder problems can take days to prep, plus all the walking to find hidden gems!

That said, I don't think I'd ever top out on a route that I knew had been bolted but not completed, if it was just the one line. Simply no need. Conversely, bolting a route, if it's a last great problem, could be used as a cynical way to "get in first". Whose line is it anyway..?

I like the mix between the honour amongst local activists and friends, in which - hopefully - we're supporting each other to climb the best bits, and the potential threat of other competition raiding our best kept secrets. So for me, no rules, but definitely agreement/otherwise amongst people we know.

Thieving b**tards 

[tomtom]

Don't tell Andy I did his route this morning... :p

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Don't tell Andy I did his route this morning... :p

Don't worry, we'll leave that for you to do 

[mrjonathanr]

(I'm not based in UK, but have done a fair amount of development of bouldering areas/climbing areas.)

I do not respect closed boulder projects. They are ridiculous.

The idea that a boulder (or route) is 'closed' to others is ridiculous, I agree. Unless it's on private land of course, it's a lump of rock to which anyone has an equal right of access.

I find the term irritating tbh, it suggests a presumption of entitlement. Basically you are asking people to be nice to you... And I'm good with that to a point on a case by case basis. ...but there's no 'rule', just a bit of kindness regarding someone's aspiration.

[petejh]

Ok, I think it's understood by all that nobody 'owns' the rock (unless you actually do own the rock!). But what experience do you have of equipping sport routes - any? How about really difficult to equip sport routes? Becasue there's a significant input of hard graft and personal expense involved with creating many sport routes. And it is a creative act that others benefit by. What incentive is there to flog your guts out equipping a new line, other than the little ego stroke and personal glow of achievement that comes with smashing the route in and 'I hereby name this section of cliff face xyz and god bless all who sail in her'.

[Kingy]

There is an 8b+ at Smith Rock called The Villain and rumour has it that in the early 90's the local who was trying it filled in the crux pockets with sika before Jibe Tribout arrived from France as he had such a reputation for ruthlessly pinching people's projects (Badman 8b+ and Scene of the Crime 8a being oblique references to his misdeeds). Once Jibe had safely departed, the pockets on what became the Villain were cleared of sika and the local was safely able to resume work on the project, which he later sent.

At Smith, the ethic is that there is so much cleaning and preparation involved of the rock beforehand that if the equipper/ preparer is actively trying a climb, it is generally left for them to finish. Similar to here I guess in that the effort of bolting generally reserves you a decent window to try your project alone.

Jibe's rep is not all bad as there is that touching tale in the BMC Peak Lime guide of him sportingly grabbing a quickdraw near the belay of what became Rumble in the Jungle at WCJ Cornice while a frantic Andy Pollitt wades across the river to save his project from being nabbed

[Sasquatch]

You should have time equal to the time spent finding, cleaning, and prepping the route/boulder.  I'd guess that the folks saying no to giving the developer time to climb a boulder either don't do much developing, or only develop stuff at their "limit".  I've got a friend who spends countless hours exploring, finding, cleaning, prepping landings, etc.  I'll give him all the time in the world to work stuff.  It's both respect and self-interest.  If I start going about stealing his projects, he'll stop telling me about them and I'll miss out on way too much stuff.  He's also fair in that if it's too hard for him, he'll offer it up to me as well. 

I've got another friend who prefers to repeat/climb only really hard stuff.  He spends virtually zero time developing/cleaning, prepping, so if he had a project, i'd have no issues getting on it as he spends very little time at it. 

I think it's important to look at the person and their overall contribution.  I have little time for leaches, but will happily wait projects out for the hard-workers. 

[mrjonathanr]

Now now Pjh, there's no need to get all aerated as nothing in my post contradicts your position or devalues your contribution or that of other equippers.

The question boils down to what is, or isn't, a reasonable way to behave and it's pretty obvious in my post tbh.


On a different tack, at le supermarche (so called so that its location would not be discernible if overheard chatting about it) the solution was to tell no one till the place was basically climbed out. That doesn't work so well in England and Wales, it's simply a question of respect.

[petejh]

  I wasn't getting aerated? - I simply asked you an honest question about what, if any, experience of equipping new sport routes you have because it's very relevant to the debate about what the 'baggsy' ethics should be for new sport routes. New boulder probs I don't know about so I don't consider my opinion about them to have much merit.
It's one thing to believe projs shouldn't be hogged by one person (I know.. you're not saying that), but things look very different once you've experienced being on both sides of the situation by putting in significant effort/time/expense to equip new routes. As always it's a balance, like you say. 8 years - probably far too long. 1 - 2 years, probably fair enough.

If it's just the label 'closed' you don't like, hmm.. doesn't bother me so much - as said I think everyone realises nobody really 'owns' a climb.

[mrjonathanr]

My bad, I misunderstood.

Oh I helped one afternoon  at le supermarche, that's about it. It was horrendous, bolting at arms reach in  a 90' roof then sitting on half placed bolts and tightening them up before going onto the next one. Did a few belay improvements at the gallery for the colonel, that was tricky in its own way too.

I have huge respect and appreciation for the people who put the routes up, after all we benefit massively from their endeavours...that's why the equipper names the route in France I guess.

I think most people would agree that the amount of consideration for the would-be first ascentionist should reflect their contribution, it's a basic courtesy. Which makes for a sliding scale where most routes would be a very different issue to boulders


I'd give someone their fair due, but the term 'closed' isn't the best really. Though that begs the question, obviously.

[abarro81]

Is there a topo for Supermarche, or is it still on the downlow?

[mrjonathanr]

I don't know, I never saw a topo, we climbed there very day so a topo wasn't relevant. Many route names painted at their base like Buoux. You should do The Moutchiki extension, big 8b prow into big lip of massive roof, about 8c+ stamina fest, brilliant line.

I did more belaying than climbing on it, to be fair 

Bruno is your man for info, Zips is in recent contact with him.

[abarro81]

Is this the same crag do you know? Looks totally amazing http://gerome-pouvreau.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/la-madone-9a-et-mercato.html (sorry for the off topic) Will ask Zippy for the knowledge

[mrjonathanr]

To be fair it's 20 years ago now...Bruno and Yann opened most of the routes. The crag is a big arc of steepness and that pic is a funny angle which doesn't show the full height but I think it is the crag. 

IIRC The prominent prow left of the climber that boundaries the cave is the line of the Moutchiki, the 8b breaks left onto the wall and the extension isn't visible as it arcs way up and back right above the climber, out of view.

Good pic.

[Will Hunt]

There's two different types of context I guess (within bouldering, sport is entirely different).

Stuff that has already been "discovered" - i.e. obvious gaps on long established crags are obviously fair game for anyone. Would anyone disagree?

Where crags have been newly or recently discovered then the developer(s) may choose to keep them secret until a time that they are ready to disclose such information. A lot of my peers who are developing Yorkshire Grit venues at the moment are recording on UKC as they go with a completely open philosophy. It would be nice if they kept it under wraps till I had a chance to visit to tick whatever I could in the low 7s range, but hey, I'm not the one who "found" the crag so it's hardly up to me! It could take me ages to get round to visiting so its hardly a reasonable request. Although not a new crag, I certainly kept Yeadon relatively quiet till I had The Cestrian done. I've always wanted to find a good, technical, tall wall climb, so I definitely didn't want that one to get away!

If there is a special case where a project has taken much cleaning and preparation then I think it respectful to stay away. I don't think anyone will have any problem doing that for Andy as he is a thoroughly decent sort.

Whilst at Yeadon I did make enquiries with a few friends as to coming up and getting a load of pads under the highball roof stuff on the Prune. One of them (he knows who he is!) asked me not to publicise, saying that "if it's less than 7C then we will get it done". I thought this a little galling as, on the numerous occassions I've invited him out to 'new' crags he has declined, dismissing them as shit. You've got to put the effort in to expect favours and in this case I'd rather just see the stuff get done, regardless of by whom.

[Dave Flanagan]

Started a discussion on this subject on the Irish bouldering forum, interesting to see if the Irish boulderers are in agreement with folks on here.

http://www.theshortspan.com/smf/index.php?topic=112.0

[petejh]

Had a read of that link. Somebody should take the time to articulate clearly what it is about a FA that gives it more value (to some people). Because that's what is at the heart of the issue of closed projects, route or boulder.

I've some half-formed ideas on why I find the challenge of doing FA's appealing but don't have time to explain them. A lot of it is related to ego. Put in perspective, when I think about my experience of climbing other routes/probs it realy doesn't matter at all to me who first 'did' them, beyond some very minor point of interest - I couldn't tell you off the top of my head who first climbed loads of the routes I've done, although I do enjoy knowing about the history of climbing.
When people get bent out of shape over naming rights/first ascents of insignificant stuff I think they should fast-forward 10 years in their minds adn realise nobody else coming along afterwards really gives the slightest shit who did what first, unless it's world's first 9a, first 9a O/S, first 9b+ etc. And even then, I'm more interested in what I can do/not do.

[Dave Flanagan]

Had a read of that link. Somebody should take the time to articulate clearly what it is about a FA that gives it more value (to some people). Because that's what is at the heart of the issue of closed projects, route or boulder.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing Pete, I didn't want to go into it there as I think I had said enough. But, I suspect, it's something that might be a little hard to understand from the outside looking in. I agree 100% that it's the heart of the issue, it make little sense to respect a closed project if you don't see any significance in FAs.

[remus]

...it make little sense to respect a closed project if you don't see any significance in FAs.

I don't think this is quite true. While some people may not care about getting FAs some do, so respecting closed projects (where you know them to be closed projects) is more about recognising and respecting the wishes of the potential FA, not so much the inherent value of getting the FA.

[slackline]

And even then, I'm more interested in what I can do/not do.

 

As impressive as Ben Moon climbing Raindshadow; Alex Megos on-sighting 9a; Ondra putting up Change/La Dura Dura*/flashing Jade etc.; Haston crushing routes +50yrs are, for me they're just something to pass idle time at work.  I'm far more interested in what I and my mates (including people here and on Twatter) are getting done and find it far more interesting as its more tangible to me.


* An interesting case to consider in this discussion given it was Shamraaaa's project that he "let" Ondra get on but whom eventually got the FA.  The impression I got from all the hype suggests that Shamraaaa was more than happy for Adam to get the FA and that the whole "v's" thing was hype by the Big Up/Sender(/whoever filmed it) people making the film.  For those that haven't seen it here's a film on it

[blamo]

I am curious, beyond the Jibe Tribout stories, are there many cases of people not respecting red-tags on routes? 

In some cases getting the FA is more about trivial recognition after having sunk a bunch of money, time, and energy into a scrappy piece of rock when you could have been climbing (as compared to manual labor).

[Dave Flanagan]

Sob sob...

[Fiend]

That looks alright for something climbing out of a toilet.

[jwi]

I am curious, beyond the Jibe Tribout stories, are there many cases of people not respecting red-tags on routes? 

[anecdote]
Erik Grandelius lost patience with an equipper who'd red-tagged a project on a local crag (the project had been red-tagged for a couple of years, the equipper lived in Thailand IIRC, and climbing was officially banned) and just climbed it (when he was still a teen ager). The red tag was a pink ribbon on the first bolt, so Erik called the route “The pink ribbon”. Much hilarity on climbing forums ensued. The equipper wrote that Erik had to “retract the FFA-claim and apologise”.
[/anecdote]

[disclaimer]
I have cleaned/bolted routes that have taken days to clean, and routes that have given me anaphylactic shocks due to the amount of pollen. Personally I couldn't care less if others free them before me, but I have never been particularly attached to the outcome of a single-pitch climb. I think this is at the hearth of the question, I can imagine it is much different for more outcome-orienteered climbers.
[/disclaimer]

[roddersm]

Sob sob...

Nice looking problem dave...you should have vaselined the holds when you had the chance...

[tresor]

Don't see the fascination of FA for a problem, would climb it and never tell anyone... Would that do any harm?

Not that I will ever get FA on any problem worth mentioning, maybe thats why I just think the whole ide is childish.
In my opinion all the credit goes to the one sharing the problems they clean and develop.

Only reason I haven't reported my current projects is because I don't wanna expose I'm to weak and to much of a coward to haven't finnished them of yet


//Tresor