[Fiend]

For that matter, fear and height/exposure/etc are quite different.

They may well be different but height and exposure are related to the level of fear are they not? There are a series of other factors that will also come into play as well so the above is an oversimplification but the point stands in my mind.

They are related but not always, nor necessarily, linked. A few examples of mine:

Mother's Pride, Elgol - the top pitch, overhanging the sea after climbing through various roofs. Pulling over the lip of the concave top is like riding the crest of a sandstone wave. Big holds, good gear - no risk, no fear, but the height is adequate, and the exposure and position amazing.

Apprentice Wall, Galloway - highball slab, technical, precarious, sheer. Nothing to hit on the way down, good landing, 4 pads, it's not even THAT high. No height, no exposure, little risk, quite a bit of fear due to the precariousness of the climbing positions.

Double Doubt, Cummingston - short steep trad wall, steady climbing but shoddy gear, no height and no exposure. End up committed above a poor cam, a reasonable amount of risk - sprained or broken ankles at most, but a lot of fear, gibbering like an imbecile.

Peeping Tom, Baggy Point - solo (decades ago), when I was leading a grade or two harder at most. Long traversing a slab, smeary 5b 20m above the sea, 5a laybacking 20m above jagged boulders, on flakey rock. Height and exposure reasonable, risk very high, fear alarmingly little (more in retrospect now!)

[kelvin]

Is it really at your limit.
t your limit would be something like Gabe Regan taking several long falls on the lead on Moonwalk, then soloing it a week or so later.

Good question - I had to think a while before answering, there's definitely two answers.

I've tried soloing E1 a few times (not gritstone) and every time, I've backed off at the crux. It's either been wet or a move that's marginal with the wrist. I've no doubt that if I'd been on a rope, I'd have probably fallen off anyway. I've only led a handful of E1s on lead and fall off HVS regularly - so pretty much my limit.
Hardly been on a rope in winter, so not sure what my limit actually is (tech 5?) but I've soloed down a short pitch of vertical ice with one ax and chopped holes to mono with as I went. Earlier the same day, put up a new 800m route in the Atlas that's supposed to be harder than the Hornli Ridge, that was soloed when I'd only ever led VDiff. In fact I only had about 7/8 days rock climbing behind me at the time.

Gritstone never feels less than precarious to me, I rarely solo on it. Safe to say I find it scary enough on a rope 

The Gabe Regan thing, sorry but I've no idea who he/she is but plenty of people throw a rope on things, fall off a lot and then solo them a week later - certainly on unprotectable gritstone test pieces. Not sure it's comparable with my climbing but perhaps it is, dunno.

[abarro81]

Surely by definition it's not really possible to solo at your limit that many times unless you genuinely don't care about hurting yourself - if you try 20 things at a certain grade and get up all them then it's not your limit. If it is your limit then you'll fall off some of them them and break/die. (The exception to this logic clearly being that if you try harder/climb better soloing then your solo limit is harder than your roped climbing limit, so you could solo at your perceived (roped) limit numerous times)

[kelvin]

Yeah - I'd agree with all of that Alex, except in that if you fall off, that's not your limit, you've gone past it.

*conditions/shoes/raised skill levels can all raise that obviously

[mrjonathanr]

Gritstone never feels less than precarious to me, I rarely solo on it. Safe to say I find it scary enough on a rope 

The Gabe Regan thing, sorry but I've no idea who he/she is

  You don't know your gritstone history then, might be interesting to find out more.

[Oldmanmatt]

Again, I think there is a huge downplay of fear in this.

It seems that what is being suggested is "I/We can solo up to the difficulty/exposure level I/We feel comfortable, but beyond that point/at the onset of less controllable fear, I/We back off (damn sensible, no criticism of that idea at all!).

Then an assertion that "the fear does not form part of the motivation", that it is for the feeling of focus, of control (of mastery?).

I posit, that what you are enjoying IS the control of fear (a very bloody natural thing to feel whilst climbing) and your "limit" represents the point at which that control begins to crack.

If, you can perform significantly harder moves on a Bouldering wall, over soft mats, then your "soloing limit" does not correspond to your " Climbing limit" and the difference is fear.


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[slackline]

if you fall off, that's not your limit, you've gone past it.

There are a few quotes at the start of Alastair Lee's Onsight...

"The grade people can climb is what they can on-sight"

"You've got to actually be good at climbing as opposed to just really strong or really brave"

But that is a whole different  that is  and has been done to death and is pretty boring, because it boils down to personal preference and being honest about the way in which you've climbed something.

[kelvin]

Totally off topic.

Basejumping is not climbing at the end of the day 

[ghisino]

.

If, you can perform significantly harder moves on a Bouldering wall, over soft mats, then your "soloing limit" does not correspond to your " Climbing limit" and the difference is fear.

You dismiss that some moves are luck-dependent and that's why a sensible person would not try them in an exposed position.

A guy with from my hometown is known to have soloed his hardest redpoint. I see it not only as a demonstration of courage but also of a peculiar climbing style: no dynos, no rush, always I control...which makes sense as he is mainly an "alpine multipitch" climber who doesn't like to fall...

[slackline]

Basejumping is not climbing at the end of the day 

The discussion has developed into one about risk and both those activites have inherent risks.

[kelvin]

Matt - I think you just think differently to me.

I'd put jumping out of a plane alongside taking a whiff of poppers in the middle of a Slipknot circle pit, just as everyone is about to crash inwards. An element of danger resulting in a bucketload of adrenalin. A giving of yourself to the fear.
I'd put the enjoyment I get from climbing alongside dancing. I'd go find my space, soak the tunes up and enjoy the movement. 'Dance like no one's watching'. Just finding that groove and maintaining it...

That's me.

[a dense loner]

What the fuck are people talking about? A guy dies BASE jumping and now we're talking about dancing in the same light?

[abarro81]

You'd know just how dangerous dancing was if you'd seen my moves

[Sasquatch]

What the fuck are people talking about? A guy dies BASE jumping and now we're talking about dancing in the same light?

Makes sense to me. I've been equally injured dancing and climbing. And I spend less time dancing, so it must be higher risk. Because if n=1=me, then it must be right 

[Oldmanmatt]

What the fuck are people talking about? A guy dies BASE jumping and now we're talking about dancing in the same light?

Told you I annoy Dense...

[DaveC]

Everybody annoys Dense, even Dense annoys Dense.....

[Falling Down]

I'm with Dense on this one.

[tomtom]

Mr Popp spoke for me when he said " Risk is... pretty irrelevant and certainly not intrinsic to motivation, experience, pleasure, or reward - for me anyway".

I concur.

Me too.

No one has yet mentioned (though have skirted round) the term objective risk - that is the risk of something happening outside of the persons control. Eg the jug failing for Paul - a sudden gust knocking a motorbike rider sideways - a lump of ice falling on your head when winter climbing etc...

All in life has objective risks, but you can minimise these and their impacts.. E.G driving a car instead of riding a motorbike reduces them as you have steel and airbags etc.. All around you (and 4 wheels are more stable than 2 in many slippery situations).. Similarly, climbing a vs with gear as opposed to soloing reduces the chance of something bad happening if something goes wrong. Having three pads instead of one etc...

As Matt said - training and experience can reduce these risks as you make decisions not to do something based on experience (training being a way of re-in forcing or teaching experience)...

To throw into the mix, the classic definition of risk (already mentioned) is

Risk = probability x cost

Alternative is

Risk = probability x ( vulnerability / resilience)

Maybe the latter is better for climbing as toucan adjust your vulnerability and resilience by training, experience and protection. Hard to say more on my ifern keyboard...

[slackline]

Did rules, not risk, cause contribute in Dean Potter's Base jumping death?

[Offwidth]

Did rules, not risk, cause contribute in Dean Potter's Base jumping death?

There is getting back on topic and getting back on topic.  Thanks for that..I'd mised it... up with the best articles I've read on the subject.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Did rules, not risk, cause contribute in Dean Potter's Base jumping death?

There is getting back on topic and getting back on topic.  Thanks for that..I'd mised it... up with the best articles I've read on the subject.

Yes, great article! Emailed the author too 

Thanks for posting that link Slackers.

Refreshing, balanced, rational. Motivating.

BTW, with reference to "caused", I don't think it was necessarily implying single cause.

[slackline]

http://time.com/3898371/alex-honnold-dean-potter-climbing/

[slackline]

Cedar Wright remembers his friend

[shark]

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/sports/dean-potter-final-yosemite-jump.html

[Oldmanmatt]

Bit smokey in here, isn't it.
[emoji22]


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