[Fiend]

Cocks.

[webbo]

Cocks.

That's not a bad idea. Give the Font grade then a rating of 1 to 10 cocks on how likely folk will claim the trad grade above 10+pads.

[tomtom]

Cocks.

That's not a bad idea. Give the Font grade then a rating of 1 to 10 cocks on how likely folk will claim the trad grade above 10+pads.

Cocks are a great idea. Plenty of scope for things being soft for the grade - and it certainly sticks in the - er - mind. Nice easy icon system too.

Alan - we've solved the problem.

Rockfax will use cocks.

[Will Hunt]

Rebrand to Cockfax. Perfect.

[Nigel]

What is it with the tradition of giving anything E6+ on grit that gets highballed "7a" as a minimum? There is absolutely no way Ulysses is Font 7a difficulty-wise, its way easier. I also agree with 205Chris, these things are still routes really. Yes they do get highballed but we aren't talking about wanging your one pad under it, that would do precisely fuck all if you lobbed from the crux of Ulysses for example; we're talking massive piles of pads. I don't think we need to pretend this is in any way common. Just give them route grades.

[Will Hunt]

How's this for a new logo, TT?

[Tom de Gay]

How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs? The easier routes are part of long established circuits, doubtless regularly soloed by folk on their own, with few pads and little fuss – you’re just not around to see them.


Toy Boy makes sense as a highball boulder problem. You can fall off the crux in reasonable safety without taking unusual measures, such as piling up £4k worth of pads.


Ulysses is a different story. Sometime in the late nineties, I saw a future notable climber come off the crux onto a giant pad stack and break his ankle. A year or two later, on an icy winter day, I stumbled across Mark Katz standing underneath Ulysses looking slightly bemused, having slipped off the crux and missed his single pad. He was totally fine: "Katz always land their feet" he said casually, before getting in his 2CV and glissading back to Llanberis.

[Sloper]

It also helps if you weigh about the same as a kitten.

But let's also recognise the variation in font grades which gets more ascents per attempt Magic bus at 7b or Anlge Jean Luc at 6b+

[a dense loner]

The easier one angle jean luc, what's your point? Why are you comparing something that's not hard like angle jean luc with something that you have more than likely had to train a bit for like magic bus?

[Johnny Brown]

How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs?

Not sure where you got that 'usually big team' from. I think the usual style is as you say - a few climbers, a few pads. But the odd line like Narcissus seems to get the team treatment a couple of times a year, proably racking up more ticks than the rest of the year put together.

And of course nowadays a lot of people tick this stuff on online databases like UKC. Have a look for yourself. I not suggesting that anything like all ascents are logged online, but I do think the proportions are representative. I'm still out on the crags every week...

Angle Jean-luc is an enormous sandbag at 6b+ and everyone knows it. Dense certainly made it look hard. Or impossible even...

[Fiend]

How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs? The easier routes are part of long established circuits, doubtless regularly soloed by folk on their own, with few pads and little fuss – you’re just not around to see them.

Okay but how about numbers of actual climbers, rather than numbers of repeats by the same climbers (who also will know the routes therefore the original onsight grade will become pretty meaningless to them). The former (general public rather than local gurus lapping things) are whom it should be graded for and I still very strongly suspect they - the vast majority - will be using pads, multiple pads on higher highballs.

I haven't done much grit in recent years but since common pad usage I have NEVER seen anyone else do highballs / micro-routes without a couple of pads, and I'd guess 95% of the photos / videos I've seen shows the same.

Nice story about Katz tho.

[Fiend]

Have a look for yourself.

Big up Si Witcher back in 97!

[fatboySlimfast]

What about the dewy decimal system

[Tom de Gay]

Not sure where you got that 'usually big team' from.

Thought it was implied in the opening post, perhaps it wasn't.


The best thing about giving font grades to sketchy solos is we'd have a few more sandbags: Archangel – Font 4; Edge Lane – Font 5. It'll be just like the Elbsandstein.

[cheque]

What about the dewy decimal system

796.525

[a dense loner]

Angle Jean-luc is an enormous sandbag at 6b+ and everyone knows it. Dense certainly made it look hard. Or impossible even...

Impossible is just around the corner. Impossible to say I've done it 7 or 8 times and have never done magic bus, tried twice doesn't like my long legs. What's next in the old font sandbags that are the hardest probs in the forest. Let me save us some time, beurre marga? Hardest prob in forest, moon falls off it. Nah, angle allain? Ondra slips off it. Nah, science friction hands down? Le menestual cycle falls off it. Any more?

[Bonjoy]

Of your examples Alan I'd say one should go in under bouldering grades alone (Nicotine Stain); Toy boy should be written up as a 7C+ direct start to an E3, the others under route grades with a mention that they can be highballed. To my mind some routes do need re-assigning as boulder problems, but it's very much a case by case thing and shouldn't happen as soon as a route gets the mega pad treatment. As has been pointed out giving grades will be even harder than usual. There is no right answer whichever way you go and it's confused by the fact that where highballs have been graded as boulder probs to date there has been a wildly variable amount of overgrading, or none at all, some unconscious, some deliberate.

[Bonjoy]

Oh and ditto what everyone else say - drop the V grades

[SA Chris]

Fiend wearing chaps would be a significant event for climbing fashion. improvement on what he normally wears

[Sloper]

Of your examples Alan I'd say one should go in under bouldering grades alone (Nicotine Stain); Toy boy should be written up as a 7C+ direct start to an E3, the others under route grades with a mention that they can be highballed. To my mind some routes do need re-assigning as boulder problems, but it's very much a case by case thing and shouldn't happen as soon as a route gets the mega pad treatment. As has been pointed out giving grades will be even harder than usual. There is no right answer whichever way you go and it's confused by the fact that where highballs have been graded as boulder probs to date there has been a wildly variable amount of overgrading, or none at all, some unconscious, some deliberate.

It's perfectly clear that when things which were given route grades are actually boulder problems i.e. safe bet, banana finger and quite clear when a route is a route, even if it is often soloed with a few pads i.e. narcissus.

[petejh]

Alan - what do guidebook authors do in other areas with lots of highballs - for e.g. Bishop? Copy that and drop the V grades for font grades.

And try to see if you can squeeze in an appendix containing unresearched details of as many of the good and currently undocumented new problems in North Wales as space allows, written by someone largely clueless about the area, such that it renders obsolete work on a new edition of the NW bouldering guide. 

[Stubbs]

Alan - what do guidebook authors do in other areas with lots of highballs - for e.g. Bishop? Copy that and drop the V grades for font grades.

A bit different when an area has been developed solely as bouldering from the start, although even there the really big problems get a YDS grade.

[petejh]

Yes different, but all that's being suggested is a change to a system that already exists elsewhere, so it's sensible to look to examples of what it is you're aspiring to. It's not like Rockfax/BMC whoever are re-writing the rules of the climbing game, just how it's perceived by some people.

[Sloper]

Do you know what I'm looking forward to? A Rockfax V7 to 15 guide to Fontainebleau 

[tim palmer]

Yes different, but all that's being suggested is a change to a system that already exists elsewhere, so it's sensible to look to examples of what it is you're aspiring to. It's not like Rockfax/BMC whoever are re-writing the rules of the climbing game, just how it's perceived by some people.

From my perspective I would say that the bishop analogy is a poor one as the climbing style is so radically different (secure and generally steep (w positive holds) vs insecure and slabby (w slopey holds)) and in general the landings are so much better in Bishop.