[Nibile]

And if it is, is this a bad thing?
Getting back seriously into law practice, I found out that in the civil suits that I follow, things tend to get personal, in the sense that beyond the will to apply correctly the law, to win the case for the client, to reaffirm and compensate a broken right, I always feel the presence of the other lawyer(s) - as persons - behind the procedural aspect.
I want to prove that I am better than they are, I am a better lawyer and I know more than they do.
When things get down to annoying stuff, like especially appeals, or when I get the idea that they are trying to sidetrack the case, or to mislead the judge, I get really really angry. I don't want anymore to just win the case, I want to crush the other lawyers into oblivion, I'd like to make them cry in Court.
I am terrified by the idea that they could win by playing dirty, and I can't comprehend how some judges are so easy-going and superficial.
I realize that this can lead to a very high level of stress, but I can't help it.
What do you think?
How do you live your jobs?
Do they get on a personal level?

[tomtom]

It's a tough one Lore - we are all human so it's impossible to think like a logical machine all the time and not be taken away with emotions and personalities.

But - when I have tough situations to deal with I try and think Dutch. I have the fortune of collaborating with a range of scientists from the NL and they have not problem with pointing out the obvious - or what is right or wrong - with a direct and largely impersonal manner.

In terms of playing dirty - I don't - and probably as a result lose out... But I am happier with myself and (I like to think) people think I am a decent and fair person to work with. A younger colleague described me as their career role model for this a few weeks back which floored me as a compliment (they were probably taking the piss though!). You can spend a lot of time trying to climb the greasy pile by whatever means possible... But that's not for me and I'm happy to never be the best - but be happy with myself.

It's all a balance I guess... Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire - and sometimes walk away and not sink to that arseholes level...

[tomtom]

(Pole not pile in para3!)

[rodma]

You can spend a lot of time trying to climb the greasy pile by whatever means possible... But that's not for me and I'm happy to never be the best - but be happy with myself.

should have posted this in the hip mobility thread.

[Falling Down]

I think it's really important to maintain a high sense of integrity and not 'play dirty' in order to be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Does my job get to me on a personal level? - Yes in the sense that it can be exhausting, stressful and tough but I don't take it personally any more.  What I mean is yes, it affects me but I've taught myself that it's not a personal attack or affront, and, on the occasions when it is I'll always call it out and confront or defuse. 

Having some knowledge of psychology, good emotional intelligence and empathy really helps I think as most personal attacks are largely borne out of naïveté, stress, fear or insecurity and sometimes it's all to do with frame of reference.

If you're getting angry Lore, don't internalise it.  Take a deep breath and reframe the situation...

[mrjonathanr]

..... and THEN sock it to 'em 

[Falling Down]

Oh I can do that well enough, I just do it impersonally like the Terminator  . I swim amongst sharks and psychopaths in a professional capacity.

[Sloper]

And if it is, is this a bad thing?
Getting back seriously into law practice, I found out that in the civil suits that I follow, things tend to get personal, in the sense that beyond the will to apply correctly the law, to win the case for the client, to reaffirm and compensate a broken right, I always feel the presence of the other lawyer(s) - as persons - behind the procedural aspect.
I want to prove that I am better than they are, I am a better lawyer and I know more than they do.
When things get down to annoying stuff, like especially appeals, or when I get the idea that they are trying to sidetrack the case, or to mislead the judge, I get really really angry. I don't want anymore to just win the case, I want to crush the other lawyers into oblivion, I'd like to make them cry in Court.
I am terrified by the idea that they could win by playing dirty, and I can't comprehend how some judges are so easy-going and superficial.
I realize that this can lead to a very high level of stress, but I can't help it.
What do you think?
How do you live your jobs?
Do they get on a personal level?

From time to time I have a very strefful time at work and it does affect me personally, but from what you say I don't thik you're psychopathic enough, stop worrying about the client's case and be concerned about whether you look good and get paid.

[Nibile]

Cheers guys, great advices all around. Keep them coming and feel free to share your personal experiences.

[kelvin]

I'm a decorator. I just wanted to be the best, do top work and yet still be able to keep up with anyone if the job demanded it. Quick and good, a rare thing.

 I am a better lawyer and I know more than they do.

If you believe that truly, then where is the stress? So what if they win a battle by playing dirty - you will win the war because you are better.

I've not done much site work but for a year or so, myself and a mate decided to earn some money and landed ourselves on a retirement village that was being constructed, alongside over 50 'painters' (I struggle to call some of them that even). Within a couple of weeks we were completing the most flats, with the least snagging and earning the most money. However, we were overtaken on the money front by a lad who was sneakily taking all the easiest flats - he was related to a foreman! I was so pissed by this. So the following Monday we asked for all the difficult flats, earning the worst money and the biggest in size, then ate little, drank less (thus no toilet visits which wasted time) and nailed them hard. Blew the other lad out of the water by £400 each, made the main boss happy as he obviously had a right earner from us that week and then told him unless the flats were shared out equally - we'd walk. It felt good on the Monday when we were given piss easy one beds to do.

Reading that back, I now know why I'm a little competitive at yoga 

[Nibile]

 
Most of the stress comes from other parts trying to push trials on and on forever, and judges allowing it. The one that's giving me stress now dates back to 2005...

[webbo]

As a mental health nurse if I took it personally every time a client relapsed/ended up in hospital despite my efforts to avoid this. Well I'd sort of go mad.
Then there the times I'm called from a pig to a dog because I or the NHS won't give someone what they want or sometimes people just kick off at you.
Do I let it get to me sometimes but it never lasts for long.

[Sloper]

Most of the stress comes from other parts trying to push trials on and on forever, and judges allowing it. The one that's giving me stress now dates back to 2005...

That's because the Italian legal system is fucked up.

Although our Judges are making efforts in the fuckwit handicap hurdle, we've recently had a District Judge refuse our application for expert evidence (on Guillion Barrie syndrome (sp)) instead suggesting we look it up on the internet.

[Will Hunt]

I work in environmental regulation in the water industry. This involves a lot of liaison with the Environment Agency -figuring out what standards we will meet, how we are regulated etc. We both share common goals in delivering excellent environmental outcomes (sorry for the corporate speak), however we might disagree on how we should do this and how we interpret various pieces of legislation.

It's important to remember that they have their job to do, just as I do; and they have their own pressures and constraints that they work within, as do I. There may be tensions along the way but not much in my experience.

One of our company's greatest assets is the strong relationships we've nurtured with the EA, which could be seen as 'the opposition', which means that liaison is easier and we get opportunities to work innovatively with them that other companies would not get.

[a dense loner]

Nibs you can't let work get to you on a personal front, there'll always be stress there whether good or bad.
On another note using terms like I'm a better lawyer than them may not be true, no offence. There are many ways to look at things, their raisin d'ete maybe to drag cases out or some such nonsense. Of course they may actually be morons!
For some firms/people sending your best person on the job may not be best for the job or the company, and other such blurb.
Give em hell

[ghisino]

it was really "personal", and in a negative sense, when i was phD'ing. Some might object it wasn't "work" but the environnement definitely was.
Anyway I felt a huge pressure/sense of inferiority when comparing to my collegues, which got a lot worse when i caught them laughing behind the shoulders of a not-so-brilliant intern - proving to me that the competitive vibe was not entirely a fictional creature of my mind.


These days as climbing instructors i am mostly laid back and have very friendly professional relationships, but sometimes it still gets personal.
Two examples.
-collegue whith whom i prepared to get into the instructor qualification training - he had much less experience than me and i helped him a fair bit. In terms of performances, body built for climbing, a lot of will, not a lot of technique nor mental skills. I'm confident i'd climb at least 8A and 8b in his shoes, yet he's around 7A/B and 7c.
He's getting very "entrepreneurial" lately with a well made and very well indexed website, that, however, often shows that he's still a newbie to climbing in some ways.
Ie, as cover image for an article about multipitch climbing, he chose a pic of Tom et je ris...
When someone pointed him out that the route is indeed a single pitch, on facebook, he got pissed because his error was made public and could have ruined his website's credibility...
To make things short, when he started this site he proposed me a partnership where i would give him articles and he would give me visibility, while at the same time earning a % on any customer he would get me, and keeping control of the customer.
Basically he asked me if he could be my boss.
I waited to see what this was all about...now not only i do not want this partnership, i am waiting for any good occasion to put him back in his place, professionally speaking.

-we are 20 something instructors working with an important climbing gym group in Paris, and in the context of negotiating a price increase for the 2015-2016 season (we are all self-employed and selling "teaching products" to several gyms and climbing clubs in paris, in a "bussiness2bussiness" relationship. We are not employed by them).
For me, this started with "ghisino there's a letter you should sign, it's to ask a price increase". ASAP.
One of "us" is also employed by the gym, she gets people's entrance fees and makes coffees. She got a "lesser" teaching qualification recently and does not actually use it with these gyms. She is also the syndicate representant for the gym's employees.
So, technically speaking, she is not really one of us.
Yet she kept the famous letter for people to sign it.
And one day she started talking bullshit to me about doing a joint strike: employees and b2b teachers.
In that precise moment I felt used, as in : she is using us in order to either get something for her fellow employees, or just to show the shareholders or her syndicate leaders that she's powerful (so, for personal reasons). Or, she does not recognize the difference of our self-employed condition, and therefore she's simply very stupid.
I am really pissed at her.
I dream of a good opportunity to discredit her as employee representant...

[hamsforlegs]

I worked for five years in a role that involved investigating and often taking (non statutory) regulatory action against individuals. This often had drawn out legal consequences. It was often very personal for the other parties, and many of them made strong efforts to oppose me rather than my organisation, and to draw me into personal disputes and concerns.

My approach was always to win with empathy, by factoring in the other person's dirty tricks and personal vindictiveness as risk factors to be predicted, countered and, where possible, exposed. Interestingly, we never had a successful challenge against any of the decisions I oversaw, even where we had made procedural errors, because we always kept focused on the real issues and kept everything relevant and courteous. I took great satisfaction when people sought huge swathes of disclosure looking for ulterior motives or malicious breaches of process. There weren't any, so while they wasted time trawling through our boringly fair/honest emails, I would quietly be putting together a solid case. Perhaps that was my way of getting personal payback?

In my current job my challenges are very different, but I still try to act with integrity even when there is the chance to put the knife in. I reckon I'll be working for another 40 years, so I'd rather be building a reputation as reasonable and fair than collecting enemies. I figure the payback in terms of opportunities, respect, and sleeping easy will far outweigh the loss of a few short term victories.

I'm pretty sure that your client base will end up reflecting your approach. I always hired lawyers that took a 'firm but fair' approach, and was never interested in those who took aggressive and personal lines. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who just want a straight, hard-fighting lawyer who can pull a front lever off monos.

[Nibile]

 
Many interesting points, folks.
Thank you all.

[tomtom]

In my current job my challenges are very different, but I still try to act with integrity even when there is the chance to put the knife in. I reckon I'll be working for another 40 years, so I'd rather be building a reputation as reasonable and fair than collecting enemies. I figure the payback in terms of opportunities, respect, and sleeping easy will far outweigh the loss of a few short term victories.

Very well put...

[Nibile]

... and then, of course, there could be some personal issue with clients...
Like the supreme c*unt that's speaking with my boss right now, trying to explain how hard it is to own 25 apartments that are rented, with taxes, with troubles getting the rents, "at the end of the month, there's scarcely 1000 Euros left for me..." and how the blame is to be put on "those Communist judges..."
It's disgusting.
I hope those 1000 Euros are spent in prescriptions for diarrhea. Mofos.

[the_dom]

I thoroughly enjoy what I do (which is business consulting, mainly in oil and gas and financial services) and I'm convinced that one of the reasons for this is that I started very consciously leaving work stress at the office and not taking things personally. Having a history of depression, I found that those key stressors had a dramatic impact on my mental health and the quality of my life. The funny thing is that people view those a 'type A' behaviours and almost worth seeking out in employees but that, rather than hampering me, my career trajectory has improved dramatically in the 5-odd years that I've been trying to separate work and life.

[SA Chris]

I'm continually having to adjust my mindset now my job is dealing with wordwide business. When it was UK only you expect most people to operate with a certain degree of ethics and understanding on how things are. In the US there is still this to a certain extent; although initial resistance things can usually be talked out. In the Middle East there is the "stiff the supplier" mentality, which unfortunately a lot of supplier will accept as "the way it is". While in the Far East it is almost seen as dishonourable to even challenge clients on anything, and kowtow to their every request, even if you know you'll not get paid for it. So I'm often add odds with internal people on these things who think it's OK to just get the work coming in, and either lose money doing it, or not making as much as they can, and I don't have any direct dealings with their clients.

[Eddies]

Nibile, your post couldn’t be more well timed for me!

I've not been all that happy in my job for a while now. I’ve been with a family run company (300 employees) for 15 years now and have experienced a slow decline in respect for a few of my managers and other members of staff over the past couple of years. The main reason for this I think is the way new managers feel the need to throw their weight around and shake up departments without really addressing the real problems like inter-department communication and employee’s morale.

I’ve never really fallen out with any of my co-workers, I’m not the most diplomatic of people but I’m extremely good at my job and I hit all of my deadlines and produce work to a very high level of accuracy and detail (I’m a project draughtsman designing and detailing canopies, walkways and bandstands). I think the main reason I’ve survived for so long in with my current employer is that I tend to keep my head down and get on with my work without stirring up too much dirt. And I don’t get involved in office gossip. At 4:30 I leave the office and shut it out completely until the next morning.

Anyway… I was snowed in and so working from home the Thursday before last, sat in my dining room staring out of the window thinking about how my life was going and how I've not been feeling happy in my job and I decided that here are a lot of things in life that can make me feel unhappy, like the death of my father and ill health and wanting to buy a bigger house. These things I can’t do change but I can change my job if it’s getting me down… So there and then I decided to make that change shamone!

I picked up my phone and rang an old friend of mine who is his own boss running a very small dedicated business restoring steelwork on grade 1 listed buildings and other areas of high sensitivity. He was delighted that id rung him and we arranged a meeting with his team the following weekend… the meeting went extremely well and last night I received their offer and as a result I am sat here now with my resignation letter in my top draw ready to hand it to my boss at 4:30.

Wish me luck

[Rocksteady]

Lot of good stuff here.

I think the important thing is to challenge yourself to maintain the highest personal standards. Sure, you can make it all a competition with other people (particularly in law), but that's not going to make you happy or necessarily better at your job.

Same in climbing, no? If your standards are set by being better than other people around you, then you're at the risk of (a) judging yourself by a low benchmark and (b) getting morally crushed when someone comes along who's a genuine world-class wad.

Same in law. You can pride yourself on being the best lawyer around, but there's always someone out there who is terrifyingly clever and hardworking and more experienced. In the days when I was a lawyer it was Jonathan Sumption - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Sumption
You can choose to work your ass off to try to be better than him, and fill all the hours of your life with work and study, or you can just make sure you work as diligently as you can within bounds that you set as a reasonable effort.

[SA Chris]

Get in Eddies. Good luck.

[Nibile]

Good news Eddies!
Good luck, for work and health!
Lots of useful insights, thanks!

[kelvin]

Wish me luck

 After so long at one place, it'd have been easy to 'settle' - sounds like a great decision you've made. Best of luck for the future!

[mrjonathanr]

Eddies: Good luck Beast!

[Eddies]

Hey thanks everyone. It went really well, they had no idea it was coming so we're very shocked, then  pleased for me and ultimately jealous of my bed offer and courage to decide to make such a change. I'm mentally exhausted but very happy tonight
I liked what rocksteady wrote a lot and although I have no idea about law or can comprehend the workload you must put upon yourself for such a job I will say that despite the fury of prep and information you must carry try to always show a calm exterior to all others at work. Think swan, or a samurai warrior. Also keep telling yourself that they may take the odd case from you here and there but they will never take your FREEEEEDOM

[ghisino]

i need  a british point of view about a mixed personal-work case!


a friend and i have been running for the same job (without knowing we were in competition for it! the employer is very discreet...)

it is safe to say that we have a good deal of mutual respect.

he got the job and i'm glad for him, and to have lost to an honourable candidate who is fit for the job and will do at least as good as me, if not better.
(seriously. i can think of many other potential candidates that i would have dead pissed to be beaten by. it is not the case)

now, in my pizza and mandolino vision of the world i expect the situation to evolve in a given way, i'm curious if this is also considered normal in the anglo-saxon world or not.

i will congratulate him a second time, having discovered that the position he was running for was the same concerning me.

Then i will offer my "help" whenever he needs it ("of course you can ask me if you need a second opinion")

He will be proud that i openly recognize his victory and whenever possible, he would give me the honours of war by pushing my name for any position that would, in his opinion, fit my profile and/or my goals.

this would be, imho, pretty standard "networking" behaviour where i come from, is it equally so in a culture that is described as more individualistic and competitive?


thanks
(btw: the guy has lived and worked for a good while in uk, that's why i ask)

[webbo]

It will have nothing to do whether he or she has a British attitude to work. It will depend on their personality I.e. How ruthless they are in pursuit of their own ambitions.

[ghisino]

It will have nothing to do whether he or she has a British attitude to work. It will depend on their personality I.e. How ruthless they are in pursuit of their own ambitions.

thanks.
. just to add context ruthless and smart italians will definitely behave in the way described above if it is a good networking move (this would depend more on me, my own ties and the occasion rather than on our friendship)

[andy popp]

I think the behaviour you describe would be just as likely in the UK at Italy. Not saying there are no differences, but, for the most part, I don't think the Anglo-Saxon world is quite as atomistic as usually described, the Latin world not quite as collective

[Nibile]

Thank you all guys, lots of good insight.
Surely I have to address this issue, before it becomes a real issue.

 

[Nibile]

Going down in the dephts of this appeal that I'm writing, I realized more and more, that when things get personal in the way that I explained, it's because I'm really scared.
I'm scared by the idea of undergoing and injustice because the other part was successful in misleading the judge (like they're trying to do in this case). I'm not scared by losing to someone who's better than me, or has better rights. Dura lex sed lex.
As usual, fear generates aggression.

[tomtom]

Fear tends to drive right wing politics too....

[granticus]

Having worked in the same position for 10 years (Area Youth Worker).  Work got very personal for me over the last 2 years, I worked for local government and the austerity cuts resulted in a new manager arriving from elsewhere in the service.  After calmly expressing my disagreement with a decision made, said manager turned out to be a first class and proceeded to make my working life an utter misery.  He used all the tools and opportunities, available to him, to make me pay.  His manager colluded the whole way and I fought as best I could.  My whole life began to revolve around not getting 'in trouble' with manager, stress, obsessing and worrying about work. Some counseling helped and I survived.  My wife had been pregnant throughout the majority of the shitstorm and my 2nd child (a daughter) arrived March 2014 (incidentally this was not even acknowledged by my manager).  I felt numb, like I had missed the whole thing.

I am certain the behaviour was rooted in fear, feeling threatened and in self preservation but there was very little I could do to prevent it.  I  will never really know why.  Nor do I care to know why now.

Early last year further cuts were announced and the opportunity to consider voluntary redundancy arose.  I took it.  October 2014 the pressure cooker was released and I was out.  A chance to reappraise what is important in life.  A chance to try something else.  The post grad certificate in education, I did after my degree and never used, came into play for some supply teaching.  Some contacts built during my time as a youth worker came good and I was interviewed for a specialist teaching position at a local secondary school (it's 20 seconds walk from home!) Friday just gone.  YYFY I got the job. 

I will be working with people who I know are lovely, I will have the shortest commute to work I have ever had and I will be on holiday when my children are on holiday.  I will have more time to spend at home with my family, (cough... more time for climbing and surfing!).

Not sure if there is a moral to the story but I know that when things get so personal that everything outside of work is affected it's not a place to remain.

 

[the_dom]

Having worked in the same position for 10 years (Area Youth Worker).  Work got very personal for me over the last 2 years, I worked for local government and the austerity cuts resulted in a new manager arriving from elsewhere in the service.  After calmly expressing my disagreement with a decision made, said manager turned out to be a first class and proceeded to make my working life an utter misery.  He used all the tools and opportunities, available to him, to make me pay.  His manager colluded the whole way and I fought as best I could.  My whole life began to revolve around not getting 'in trouble' with manager, stress, obsessing and worrying about work. Some counseling helped and I survived.  My wife had been pregnant throughout the majority of the shitstorm and my 2nd child (a daughter) arrived March 2014 (incidentally this was not even acknowledged by my manager).  I felt numb, like I had missed the whole thing.

I am certain the behaviour was rooted in fear, feeling threatened and in self preservation but there was very little I could do to prevent it.  I  will never really know why.  Nor do I care to know why now.

Early last year further cuts were announced and the opportunity to consider voluntary redundancy arose.  I took it.  October 2014 the pressure cooker was released and I was out.  A chance to reappraise what is important in life.  A chance to try something else.  The post grad certificate in education, I did after my degree and never used, came into play for some supply teaching.  Some contacts built during my time as a youth worker came good and I was interviewed for a specialist teaching position at a local secondary school (it's 20 seconds walk from home!) Friday just gone.  YYFY I got the job. 

I will be working with people who I know are lovely, I will have the shortest commute to work I have ever had and I will be on holiday when my children are on holiday.  I will have more time to spend at home with my family, (cough... more time for climbing and surfing!).

Not sure if there is a moral to the story but I know that when things get so personal that everything outside of work is affected it's not a place to remain.

Congrats, and congrats to Eddies too. Tough decisions.

[Rocksteady]

Going down in the dephts of this appeal that I'm writing, I realized more and more, that when things get personal in the way that I explained, it's because I'm really scared.
I'm scared by the idea of undergoing and injustice because the other part was successful in misleading the judge (like they're trying to do in this case). I'm not scared by losing to someone who's better than me, or has better rights. Dura lex sed lex.
As usual, fear generates aggression.

Nibs if someone is cheating then I think you're right to want to beat them to the limits of what's possible. in the UK we have the Solicitor's Regulatory Authority and Bar Council who you can report lawyers to  if you feel that their behaviour is in breach of the standards of professional integrity. Is there an equivalent in Italy? This also can work as a wider tactic if you really want to smash your opponent as it raises a time-consuming investigation that they are obliged to respond to at the same time as fighting their case!