[Nemo]

I remember looking (from the ground!) at this line donkeys years ago – looks well good.

"What did someone say about bouldering reaching a limit?”  - JasperSharpe

I'm guessing you're referring to me, although that isn’t quite what I said…  The limit is still clearly very far away in terms of physical ability.  What I've said is that there are (IMO) only a small number of high quality 9th grade boulder problems out there to be climbed – and so the future of bouldering is much more constrained by geology than the future of sport climbing. 

“The possibilities are endless" - JasperSharpe

In terms of lowballs, traverses and crappy eliminates I agree.  But are you going to find large numbers of high quality 9th grade boulder problems even in a hundred years?  I very much doubt it, unless someone finds some completely new venue which is very different to anything yet climbed on.

There are a lot of boulders in the world – but sadly almost all of them don’t come in 9th grade shapes.  The steep crimpy stuff you find in the US and elsewhere has limits - as the holds get really small they also tend to snap.  On the more vertical, slopey conditions dependent stuff (Grit and Font), there are plenty of blank unclimbed walls.  Unfortunately they tend to be of the type which will be either completely impossible or will be 8A dynos for 7ft tall people and impossible for everyone else.  The majority (of the very small number) of decent quality 9th grade problems will most likely be found on steep granite or limestone. 

And there certainly will be some...  What Daniel has just done was a very well known project and there are certainly some others. Apparently there’s two possibles on one boulder in Squamish - the sit to The Singularity and the thing to its left.  Then there’s the “Even Bigger Island” in Font   There’s Nalle's ridiculous looking thing in Finland (which out of everything found so far, seems most likely to be both doable and a completely different level to anything yet done).  Out of the currently known venues, the most potential is probably still in Switzerland although places like Penoles might end up with quite a bit. 

But IMO the number of good problems which are genuinely a step up from anything yet seen really is very, very limited, unless you're talking about long traverses, link ups in caves or crappy lowball eliminates.  You're not going to turn up in Cuvier in 100 years and find a load of 9A's, because they aren't there to be climbed.

Having said that I’d love to be wrong - there’s always the possibility that somewhere in Outer Mongolia (or more likely, high in the Himalayas), someone comes across a pile of perfect, smooth but slightly featured granite boulders, in an area with reasonably cold weather.  But there’s an awful lot of hard boulderers out there doing an awful lot of travelling and developing of new areas.  And what they’re finding is generally more of the same.  Ie:  Lots of stuff up to 8B, quite a few 8B+’s, the odd 8C…  But without doing epic traverses or going in circles, that’s about it.  You can argue that that’s because of the level they’re climbing at, but I don’t agree – they could spot future potential if it was there  - unfortunately with very few exceptions, it just isn’t.  (Whereas with sport climbing – Ondra bolted a few high quality probable 10as within no time of being there at the Red River Gorge – and in Spain and various other places the potential really is endless). 

That said, there’s still plenty of bouldering development to be done in the next decade or so – but IMO the top end is not going to keep pace with the top end in sport climbing (unless Ondra gets injured) – at least in terms of good quality problems.

"I wonder why bouldering plays the keep the grades tough game and is happy to downgrade whilst it doesn't happen with routes." - GME

1.  Beta improvements happen when people get round to repeating things - makes a huge difference to the difficulty in bouldering.  Typically on routes the difference made by beta is much much smaller.  This is exacerbated by the fact that there are a large group of boulderers operating very close to the top level so good problems  tend to get lots of attention and beta improvements.  Whereas as remus has just said, if Ondra cocked up the sequence on Change and it's actually a 9a (not likely obviously), who's really going to go and try a 9b+ and find that out...

2.  You put your finger on half of the other reason:   Different groups of people have been using completely different bouldering grading systems in different areas.  Hence all the downgrades in Switzerland and South Africa.

As you say we're slowly converging on pretty much what is used in the US.  The reason for that is that the majority of the worlds best boulderers (and certainly the ones doing the most travelling and repeating stuff) are Americans – hence it’s their version of the grading system which is winning out.

Whereas with routes, the worlds sport climbers all tend to go on holiday to Spain – so Spanish grades tend to win out (although at the top end, I think Sharma stiffened the grading system considerably from what it used to be – and as that filters down I think various things in Spain are likely to get slowly downgraded at least a bit).

[Doylo]

Yep it's taken years for Nalle just to do the Lappnor project in two sections. Definitely sounds like another level when you consider he's done 3 of the very hardest problems in the world (Livin Large, Buglesien sit and Gioia).

[Sasquatch]

A bit of another way of looking at this is to who's tried it extensively and failed.

Dan Beall - has been working this project almost exclusively for the last two years.  Has bouldered v15, and ticked almost everything at the milks with the exception of Lucid dreaming.

Matt Birch - no v15's, plenty of v13 and v14 crimping.

Carlo Traversi - multiple v15's

Lots of others have tried it, but those have worked it extensively with no success.  Also realize this is woods' third season of trying it. That said, I'm not sure he'll drop the v16 on it. 

[Fiend]

I propose that at the cutting edge of bouldering, a first ascentionist must need to have done the same number of problems of the previous V-grade AS the previous V-grade itself. I.e. someone proposing a new V13 should have done at least 12 V12s first. At the very cutting edge this would get harder, i.e. 15 V15s before proposing V16, but that would ensure greater accuracy and avoid prematurely raising grades.

Funnily enough, Woods has probably got that sorted 

[SA Chris]

http://www.climbing.com/news/woods-serves-the-process-v16/

Climbing have attached V16 to it (albeit with a ? and the word "possible")

[JackAus]

"...as Daniel previously has done 19 8C graded boulders out of which ten FA."

Blah blah quote from 8a.pu

[JonB]

Yep it's taken years for Nalle just to do the Lappnor project in two sections. Definitely sounds like another level when you consider he's done 3 of the very hardest problems in the world (Livin Large, Buglesien sit and Gioia).

Going back to what people were saying about the 7C+ bit at the top of this thing, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Nalle reckoned the 'redpoint crux' of Livin' Large is the 6C+ (or something) top section.

[r-man]

Trying to find it on the net. Found Nalle talking about the last move being the redpoint crux

http://nalle-hukkataival.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/livin-large-in-south-africa.html

Turns out that the last move is actually the redpoint crux. That got me really syked again. I mean, how cool is that! You find a perfect, tall highball project just at your limit and the crux is the last move 8 meters off the deck! It doesn't really get any better than that!

And something on the Outcropfilms site, though not by Nalle

http://outcropfilms.blogspot.co.uk/2011_07_01_archive.html

The line is the most stunning thing ever climbed! The ascent by Nalle took bouldering to another level. Logistically it is a ridiculous project. It takes an hour to walk in on no path, you need about 8 pads and spotters. Not to mention it’s 8c and a solid 8 metres high. Imagine Careless Torque but two metres higher, with harder start moves acting as the gatekeepers for the disgustingly technical, scary, E19 without pads, Font 6c+ top section.

[a dense loner]

Yep people lv hyperbole 

[Doylo]

Also from that blog:

Everyone is psyched (apart from Lee Anderson... obviously and Scott thinks it’s shit and recommends you never come here)

[slackline]

Someone who knows a thing or two about hard climbing and went to try Livin' Large but didn't get up it (not much insight to the actual climbing, but he was very keen to get it done).

[JMB]

Daniel Woods: "Yea 8C+ crimp line might seem appropriate. I need to do Gioia first though (I go in february) and Bügeleisen sit to confirm. This is my hardest psychological climb that I have done."

Jens: "This means that The Process, at the moment, is possibly the only 8C+ boulder in the world"

[jwi]

I'm trying to make my life a Jens-free zone. Could you please refrain from quoting him directly on this forum, or

NSFW  :

put his crazy ramblings between the nsfw tags?

[a dense loner]

I agree with JWI, that man makes sloper look sane! No more from him if semi-rational people don't mind pls

[Fiend]

Christ a gigantic bellend. For god's sake, don't let someone with such a minimal understanding climbing or grading go anywhere near a climbing / logbook website 

[Duma]

Meanwhile, a couple of metres to the left, Mr Megos works on Lucid Dreaming

[Sasquatch]

He had done all the moves back in November when I was there, but it was a bit too warm/humid for it. 

[Nibile]

Christ Sasq, you're such a nice guy!
This thread could be a gold mine for you, with every post I would remind everyone that "when I was there, the trip in which I climbed The Mandala, you know..."
Good for you you're not me!!!
Chapeau.
 

[Muenchener]

 He would risk being ridiculed if The Mandala is now four grades below the cutting edge instead of three

[Ged]

And wearing Tenaya shoes too, must be at least v18 with them on

[Johnny Brown]

disgustingly technical, scary, E19 without pads, Font 6c+ top section

No wonder people think british grades are fucked.

[Rocksteady]

This blog from Daniel Woods explains how the problem breaks down. My interpretation of what he's saying is that he's calling it V16.

http://neverstopexploring.com/2015/01/28/daniel-woods-sends-process/

Seems hard for him to say it?!

[Doylo]

Everyone's shitting themselves about getting something downgraded.

[standard]

I could smell the rock and feel its energy.

i'll just play Devil's advocate:

The thing it just does not have is the mental factor and that is what separates The Process from the rest

so it's v16 and not v15 because it's scary?

Furthermore, from that blog post, it seems he was lapping the v13 + v14 bit over and over again?
So lapping a v15?

[Doylo]

Sounds like he thinks the height pushes it over the cusp. Hard V15 for physicality with a bit of spice and stress to push it over. Looks amazing.