[Tim Heaton]

Now I know most of you live near climbing areas so can go outside as much as you wish but I live in the flatlands with no easy access to outdoors bouldering so have to make do with indoor training facilities. Anyway I was having a conversation with my friend recently and he was trying to convince me that the best training for climbing is climbing while I was trying to explain to him why I thought this was rubbish (may be most fun but not best in terms of improvement). My argument went along the lines that you can split climbing down into some fairly simple specific tasks such as strong fingers, strong back/shoulders, body tension, technique e.t.c. which can be trained better individually along with perhaps some form of training to integrate the aspects so they work well together. In no other sport, for instance 800m athletics, does one just go out and run 800m until you get tired then stop but instead you do speed work, technique work, distance work, weights e.t.c

To try and see who is correct I volunteered to test out the hypothesis using everyone's favourite word SCIENCE. For the next month I don't intend to go to the climbing wall at all but instead have a program of fingerboarding and weights thus:

Monday: Weights - Squat, Military Press, Rows, Dips
Tuesday: Fingerboard - Timed open+crimped hangs then footless circuit for contact strength
Wed: Off, maybe some streching if I can be arsed
Thurs: Weights - Deadlift, Bench Press, Pull Ups + A.N.Other
Fri: Fingerboard - same as Tues
Sat: Off, maybe some stretching if I can be arsed
Sun: Fingerboard - same as Tues

I also intend to put up my systems board at some point in the next month so may incorprate that into my schedule too e.g. swap for a fingerboard so I can concentrate on technique and linking all the skills together. By the end of the month I will then try to assess whether I have improved or regressed in some entirely arbitrary way, I am going back to Font so can see if I can climb the problems I couldn't do there last month for instance. My guess is that initially first 2 days or so I will be a bit crap then better than I was before. What do you think?

Obviously I have no control case in this experiment and only one subject under study so it doesn't really hold much water if critiqued too harshly

[unclesomebody]

tim, brilliant idea, and good luck.  However, I think this is not a fair experiment because of the following.  Getting better at most things in inverseely exponential.  I mean that rapid gains are maid to start with then as your skill increases improving becomes more difficult.  Therefore I predict you will find great increases as a result of your one month experiment. This is obviously because you have weak fingers and no muscle.    

i hope it all works out for you!

[Simon S]

It may be worth adding some hanging knee lifts, crunches and maybe front levers ( if you have the energy!) to keep the abs nice and strong. Enjoy!!

[Tim Heaton]

I was going to do some Dragon Flags (or situps if they are too hard, I can do about 1 and only on the way down   ) at the end of my weights sessions and then do some Front Levers and Planches at the end of my fingerboard sessions. Was going to build my woody and then after a month cut the weights and swap it for systems training to bring everything together hopefully.

[a dense loner]

whenever you train stomach, it is best to do it for bursts over a period ie. rather than do 5 sets of situps do one set some hangs one set somethin else etc doin 10 sets of sit ups in an hour will get you a stronger stomach than doin 10 sets of situps in 20 mins :wink:

[webbo]

i used to do lots of weight training, plus finger pull ups etc back in the late 70's early 80's.i could bench 200lb,squat 300lb,30pull ups ,a pull up with 100lb.however i believe i've got stronger by climbing indoors twice and out once every week
i belive the trick is to work your own problems that you just cant link.once you've done them a couple of times bin em and work out some new ones.you will need to do other folks problems to improve your weakness as well as your strengths

[Tim Heaton]

That's bloody strong though, I am nowhere near that level which is why for me I think that weights is one of my areas of weakness that is worth working on - can't do a one-armer, fairly weak shoulders for press type moves e.t.c. Is it possible that having this level of base strength in all of your body then enabled you to peak your specific climbing muscles while climbing to a level that otherwise they wouldn't have reached?. I remember you said in another thread that after having not climbed for a while when you started again it took you barely any time to crank out a one-armer/front lever again. I would hope this is fairly unusual otherwise it makes me very jealous   .

In my argument with my mate I was not implying just going to the gym and fingerboarding would necessarily get you better but rather that if you personalised your training regime while still training things specifically then you would improve faster than by just climbing. For instance if technique was your weakness you would improve more by doing drills on your technique - e.g. just do egyptians, flagging e.t.c. than just randomly climbing.

This said I do think that on a wide variety of problems (perhaps not grit though) getting to the top of the problem relies on being able to pull bloody hard on small holds. Perhaps if someone was willing to teach me technique my mind could be altered  :wink: .

Another thing I find appealing about breaking down your training is the ability to measure your improvements quantifiably which is great for motivation. I lifted/hung this last week so this week I am going to do something harder e.t.c.

I know this seems like a total anathema to most climbers but as you might have been able to tell I used to do other sports when younger which had specific training schedules.

[Tim Heaton]

Oohh one more thing while I think about it. Splitting your workouts actually enables you to train more while still getting adequate recovery. I have been going for a week now and while I seem to permanently ache it it is in different parts of the body. If I do a weights session the soreness that occurs next morning doesn't affect my ability to fingerboard and by the time the next weights session comes around my fingers may be shot but similarly that doesn't affect my benchpress.

In my schedule I have 5 sessions a week and if I climbed in the gym that amount I feel I would definitely be overtraining.

P.s. My interest in this does mainly relate to the fact that Oxford climbing wall is a bit shit and seems to cause injuries in my fingers, so want a break from it.

[unclesomebody]

i definitely agree with you tim, SCIENCE needs to be applied to training for maximum results. It all comes down to why you climb etc, but I know that I climb because I want to pull really fucking hard.  That is what I enjoy, so I want to be able to pull hard.  Specific training regimes are the way forward, but are just so hard to keep to.  It's about having the resolve to NOT go out bouldering with your mates, and do a fingerboard session, or weights, or whatever.  Some people on here might think that's a totally gay thing to do, but I think it's all good.  I hope you are keeping records of all your regimes and stuff, so You can look back over them etc.  I'm sure you'll notice big gains if you stay dedicated.

[Tim Heaton]

Yep got records of my fingerboard workouts and weights sessions. If I didn't then I definitely wouldn't have the motivation to keep it up. The hardest thing is deciding that you're actually going to do it and not just think about it.

Perhaps a bit sad but I have also written down what goals I want to achieve by the end of the month e.t.c.

Weights:
Squat 100kg
Deadlift 150kg
Bench 65kg (Bodyweight)
Military Press 40kg
One Armer

Fingerboard:
Open deadhang whatever edge
Front Lever
Footless circuit with added weight

By Christmas:
Planche

The one thing I have real trouble doing is stretching though. I wanted to be able to do the splits so wrote that down as a goal but for some reason just can't get motivated to actually set aside 30mins to stretch at all. Don't know why, any suggestions would be most helpful.

[a dense loner]

i think you need to go back to school :roll:

[Bubba]

Now now dense  :wink:

I think it's good that people are that dedicated to their training - I used to be a long time ago, but these days I'd rather go bouldering with my mates, or just stay in and paint the fucking house or something  :twisted:

Anyway, that's a serious list of goals for the month end - 1 armer *and* bodyweight benchpress. Did you know that some guy has pressed 11 times his bodyweight? That's mighty impressive, might even be more these days.

You can probably get away with less stretching than a half hour. I used to be able to do the box splits easily after doing loads of stretching, but lost the ability for years. Recently though, I can pretty much do them again - well, I can do them but can't quite press my nuts to the floor like I used to be able to. It's my Thai Boxing that's sorted it out again and we only do about 10 mins stretching after a 15 min aerobic warmup. Mainly normal stretching but with an occasional bit of isometric stretching thrown in.  Try to incorporate it into your warmup/down and it won't seem such a chore.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

tim how old r u?

[Simon S]

I reckon that you're spot on with regard to having specific goals and targetting you're sessions to sort out weaknessesa and areas that you wish to improve. Training diaries are also an area that I'm not really seen mentioned much in training articles relating to climbing but they are an essential element for endurance athletes and I can't help but think that if more climbers used them they would find it much easier to fine tune their performance. Additionally patterns of poor or good performance could be traced to particular training schedules. Personally I find that keeping records of training helps to retain motivation to.
Anyway, good luck with the training Tim!

[T.H.]

The best type of training for bouldering is likely to be the subject of my dissertation, where training diaries will of course be vital.  I'm hoping you'll be a willing volunteer Simon?

[Simon S]

Of course I will T.H! I'm hoping I'll go from being a weak punter to toned bouldering god in a matter of weeks!

[Tim Heaton]

I am 24 I think. However am doing a PhD. so have lots of spare time  

As I said the main reason I have started my experiment is that the climbing facilities in Oxford are not that great and unfortunately I don`t have a car so am stuck here. How I hate you all with your local crags.

Don`t reckon that a 1 armer and body weight bench press is that unachievable in a month, plus I don`t weigh anything so will still be less than everyone else in the gym. I have done a bit of weights before as I used to do a lot of rowing while an undergrad hence my legs are pretty strong. I will report back if I manage it  :wink:

T.H. if you want someone else to test your theory on then I am more than willing to donate myself.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

a few things tim.
if u manage a 1 armer in under a month i'll eat my hat. no offense but they're hard as fuck.
personanly i wud say don't bother with the weights. they develop non functional strength. u lift the bar where as it shud be u who's moving not the bar. its tricky to explain. but would reccomend olympic lifts. get the barbell deadlift it then lift it over your 2-5 times.

i'll also let u in on a little secret of mine :wink:  i call them super frenchies. pull up lock at 120, 90, full, 90 and then 120 again for ten seconds each. try and do five with 3 minutes rest in between. if it feels easy add a tenth of your body weight. also do them on crimps or first joint open hand.

also weighted pull ups r great. no more 5 at a time but do up to 6 sets 3 minutes rest again.

L hangs on crimps and open hand kill two birds with one stone.
5 for 15 seconds or 10 for 10 seconds.

hope this helps.

How I hate you all with your local crags

don't worry your not the only one.

[Tim Heaton]

Sorry perhaps should have explained myself better, obviously my goals are personally geared towards me and how strong I currently am. For the strength I have at the moment I think they are all achievable but will be happy if I get about 50% of them. I then normally adjust each one depending on whether I managed it was way off e.t.c.

For instance I would agree learning to do a 1 armer from scratch would be pretty phenomenal :shock: but I can do them now with only a little bit of weight assistance.

Would love to try out Olympic lifts but don`t really know how to do them safely and don`t know anyone who could train me. I used to do a Olympic circuit complex I think I have mentioned on this forum before. Have a search if you like it`s very good if tiring.

[Fingers of a Martyr]

oh right i thought u were on about from scratch with the one armers. sorry about that. as for olympic lifts i never learnt or got taught just sort, well started doin them. they'll be sum stuff on the internet about em but i never bothered to look.

[Nigel]

Some people can actually do one armers from scratch, being naturally strong. I knew a guy, Pete, who could do them before he started climbing. Before that he'd never really done anything obviously upper bodyish!  :shock:

[Nigel]

Some people can actually do one armers from scratch, being naturally strong. I knew a guy, Pete, who could do them before he started climbing. Before that he'd never really done anything obviously upper bodyish!  :shock:

[Fingers of a Martyr]

genetic freaks :D

[Bubba]

I seem to remember Ben Moon's brother being able to one-arm hang the first joint finger blocks in the old Hallam Uni wall first try, despite not doing really doing any climbing at all.

[webbo]

i've had 3 returns to climbing having had a lay off of several years.the first couple of times,was before there was any good walls around and the only woody i'd seen was holds in the roof.you just did footless problems,at this time i was too weak to do this.so i weight trained,did pull ups etc
this time around after an 8 year lay off i've just trained at the wall[rockcity] in hull. there is a large resin featured cave plus a cellar with 2 diffrent angled boards.so you can vary your workouts  to suit what ever  you feel needs strengthening,this seems to have got me stronger faster.however i dont do a lot of crimpy finger work,mainly slopey stuff as i'm a bit prone to finger injuries

[Paz]

Hi TH, if you're doing a proper SCIENCE experiment you need a control specimen.  I volunteer not to do any proper training at all.

[Tim Heaton]

I've just got back from my trip to Font after my six weeks training experiment (without any actual climbing - just system boarding, fingerboarding and weights). I found that for the first two days I was pretty rubbish not really using my body very well at all and really struggling to get up things despite definitely being stronger than ever before. To be fair I wasn't really trying the kind of things I had been training i.e. was doing more walls than overhangs and probably fairly technique dependent problems aswell - I think my problem was mainly just trying to pull with my arms rather than getting maximum weight on my feet.

After two days of pretty much falling off everything though the next morning it all just started to click and I had an awesome morning at Cuvier - don't think I have ever climbed so well. Unfortunately having killed myself the previous two days I had no skin left - had to wait for 3 tips to clot between goes (at least it meant I had a proper rest  ) so had to stop after about an hour.

From this experience I would maybe recommend at least a weeks of technique work (probably climbing outside) before any trip abroad to get your technique back in shape and learn how to use your new found strength to the full if you have just been concentrating on isolated fingerboard/campus work e.t.c.

I would really recommend some squats/deadlifts for core strength and maybe plyometric stuff for dynos perhaps something not many climbers do - it's pretty easy to improve your vertical jump by a fair wack pretty quickly and it's not even as if for most dyno's you even really have to jump that far. Stretching also seems very good both in terms of genreal well being and ability to use your feet.

Also I got given these free sample Meal Replacement Protein shakes which I took with me to Font and had everyday as a mid afternoon snack - unfortunately buying them is quite expensive (about £3 a pop I think) but they really seemed to work really well as easy crag food and definitely meant that my recovery for the next day was much quicker - I was still reasonably fresh after 3 days.

I am not sure how I will proceed in my training from now on. I definitely think that ideally you do need to incorporate some element of sport specificity with at least one session a week outside (best) or at least down the wall.

In conclusion I am very jealous of those people who live near real rock or have cars.      

[ian h]

glad to hear your training was successful, what ticks did you get?

[Tim Heaton]

Things I did:

Fri: (Roche aux Sabots)
Smatch - Done before, always end up repeating this every time I am here
Jeux du Toit RH version

Sat: (Cuisiniere)
Bit of red circuit before I got side tracked
l'Impasse du Hasard - beautiful problem everyone should do this
Tried Hale Bopp - it's a long way :D not very close

Sun: (Cuvier)
Cortomaltese
Abbatoir OS
Joker OS although I used a pocket to the right just below the top after doing the cross through thing which I wasn't sure was allowed although is pretty much right in front of your face when you are there.

I have come home with a longer ticklist for next time though - always the way  

Hale Bopp - need good skin and to be better I think  
La Teigne
Gravitron
Sphincter toniques - had killed myself on the first day and couldn't do the bloomin' top out. I hate the feeling of fingers slowly unfurling on a hold and knowing there is nothing you can do about it.
Most annoying was Jus d'Orange at Isatis though. Don't know if anyone has done it, tried it first go rock over just clicked, easily got to the mono no problems, couldn't really work out where to put my feet so jumped off/made crap attempt at jumping for the top while looking where my pad was  :wink: . Thought no problems get it next go, couldn't even get close to the rock over in about 20 more goes  :?  this made me realise I needed to improve my technique.
Also has anyone done Entorse at Cuisiniere? We were told that you had to jump straight up to the hold on the top of the arete by some locals but on the bleau website they all jump left to the finishing hold on double entorse which feels much better.

[dave]

i had a session on entorse bout 18mounths ago. was hitting the hold directly above you a few times but didn't hold it. never thought of going for the one further left, but in retrospect it'd probably make it piss - if i get on it again that swhat i'd do for sure.

afterall, entorse is the natural problem and double entorse is the eliminate, so i say do whatever you feel like on entorse.

[Tim Heaton]

Nah same with us, pretty easy to get the height and hit the hold but it really is pretty rubbish and hard to stick, I dont think either my friend or myself ever really even got the feeling that we might stick it.
If you jump out left you also have the greater possibility of breaking an ankle and hence the problem would live up to it's name  

[dave]

i figure that catching the left hold you're holding it in opposition with the arete which is going to help you hold it, whereas going straight up its just a plain one-hand hang on a toss hold.

the only guy in our krew who did it that year was like 6'4 or some ish. :shock:

[Tim Heaton]

Hmm maybe, you would need to have some monkey span to hold them both simultaneously though.

There should be a smiley for monkey span

[Scouse D]

i figure that catching the left hold you're holding it in opposition with the arete which is going to help you hold it, whereas going straight up its just a plain one-hand hang on a toss hold.

the only guy in our krew who did it that year was like 6'4 or some ish. :shock:

A couple of guys did it Dave-Ali and Euan(didn't he flash it and say it was the easiest problem he'd done in the forest?). They are both very tall though

[dave]

maybe you'd be able to hit the left hold and simultaneously toe-hook the arete with right foot?  would require good coordination, and i don't just mean a t-shirt which matches your trousers.

[a dense loner]

am goin to have to come to font with you guys soon you find all the easy ticks :wink:

[ian h]

seems you had a pretty cool trip tim

i have done entorse. i did it dynoing to catch the top with left hand. this just seemed the natural way to do the problem for me. at the time i was unaware of double entorse (before the 7 - 8 guide was out) but i would really like to have a go at it now. did you try double entorse? if so does it seem much harder than the origional version?

[Tim Heaton]

We did try double entorse briefly, I couldn't do either so can't really say which is easier although I felt I had much more chance with entorse :D

Double entorse didn't seem much like your typical dyno as the hand holds seemed to be more used to set you up than push off making it a rather fast stand up in a position that requires quite a lot of flexibility, your feet are on a pretty big ledge. You have to have quite good turn out to get in the correct frog position and then be able to push from that while still turned out. I found this quite difficult to do as I'm not that flexible, something I need to work on, and as such it is quite difficult to go upwards in any semblance of control. I'm not that convinced that it's a great problem (I'd rather do Hale Bopp or Kangeroo City   ),  normal entorse appealed more to me but it is actually fairly independent not using any of the same holds other than the footledge. Good luck with it if you go again

[dave]

kangeroo city is nails. i tried it for a while, had one ramdom go where ihad fingers over the top, no idea what i'd done different, then couldn't touch it. not that great a problem though really, bit pockey with the low start - mister dynamite is the same at cuisiniere.

[Tim Heaton]

In July on the last day of my trip I got my whole hand over the top about 20 times but still couldn't hold the swing, I made the excuse that it was really hot and sweaty :wink: and not that I was crap or anything. Are you getting a theme that I can never hold the top of any dyno's?

I think it's just about sacking off any attempts at technique and just pulling as hard as you can. Are you doing it the same way as in whichever Font video it's in, I couldn't get that to work so went for the standard British approach of excess power - although that's a bit of an impossibilty in my case as anyone who's seen me will testify   .

Agree that dyno's where you don't have to scrunch yourself into a tiny ball but instead have to do a bit of climbing to get up to the dyno section are the ideal but I can't think of that many, the actual leap on Kangeroo City I think is quite nice.

Jetset is still a bit crap mind  :?

[dave]

in the vids they seem to sidpull/undercut the flake - that seems totally wack to me and wehen we've been trying it its been with a str8 pull type flava.

[Tim Heaton]

Aye that was my thoughts exactly, these people with technique shouldn't be allowed. I just went for the straight pull, sink down till your arse is scratching the floor and throw as hard as you can.