[haydn jones]

New regulations for climbing in Albarracín were published in the B.O.A., which is the Official Bulletin for such autonomous region. These are the main points which everybody should strictly follow if you do not want to get fined and/or make things worse:

1. Sport climbing requiring non-removable or removable protection is forbidden.

2. Bouldering is allowed just on the indicated areas. However, within these areas climbing is forbidden on boulders which can be seen from the road from Albarracín to Donarque, as well as in a 30 metre radius around the cave paintings.

3. Climbing is restricted from an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset.

4. Magnesium, tick-marks and any other product that leaves marks on the rock surface is prohibited.

Just some few days ago, the new regulations for climbing in Albarracín were published in the B.O.A., which is the Official Bulletin for such autonomous region. These are the main points which everybody should strictly follow if you do not want to get fined and/or make things worse:

1. Sport climbing requiring non-removable or removable protection is forbidden.

2. Bouldering is allowed just on the indicated areas. However, within these areas climbing is forbidden on boulders which can be seen from the road from Albarracín to Donarque, as well as in a 30 metre radius around the cave paintings.

3. Climbing is restricted from an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset.

4. Magnesium, tick-marks and any other product that leaves marks on the rock surface is prohibited.

http://www.boa.aragon.es/cgi-bin/EBOA/BRSCGI?CMD=VERDOC&BASE=BOLE&PIECE=BOLE&DOCS=1-45&DOCR=4&SEC=FIRMA&RNG=200&SEPARADOR&&PUBL=20141128

[haydn jones]

Wasn't sure where to post this so put it here :s

[r-man]

Oh dear, doesn't sound like there is much love for the climbers. Don't the Spanish have a BMC?

[dave]

Aren't they the same "rules" that have always been in place that everyone ignores?

[haydn jones]

Oh don't know about that dave. It was posted on 8a.shit so could be false info/out of date.

[a dense loner]

Rule number one is my favourite

[tomtom]

Looks like you're fine to shit all over the place though...

[lagerstarfish]

as long as it doesn't mark the rock surface

[kelvin]

Oh I dunno, the odd smear might hide the tick marks.

[tomtom]

Or - use a cunning poo-toilet paper combo to 'paste' over the tick marks! Everyones a winner!

[haydn jones]

"Wow this sloper feels as sticky as shit on a sheet"

[Paul B]

Oh dear, doesn't sound like there is much love for the climbers. Don't the Spanish have a BMC?

If this surprises you then I'd imagine you haven't been? Climbers have trashed this place and show almost zero respect for it. The toilet 'situation' near the approved (I can't understand this, here or in Margalef) parking area / sleeping zone is ridiculous...

[r-man]

I've been. I actually didn't see any poo, despite being on the lookout for it after friends had warned me it was everywhere. This was some years ago, so I've no idea what it's like now.

I never said I was surprised, but it is disappointing. This has obviously been an issue for many years, why haven't the climbers and the authorities got together to sort something out? Regulations with ridiculous rules like no chalk suggest that there hasn't been a lot of conversation. Maybe I'm wrong, but as an outsider looking in, it does seem like a weird state of affairs.

[Durbs]

Likewise never been, but it's reputation is that it's essentially one large toilet and from photos it does look massively over-chalked. Perhaps this is made worse by the colour of the rock making the chalk stand out more?

This usually seems to be blamed on the locals rather than tourists - but it doesn't suggest there's much respect for the area.
In general, is it fair to say our European counterparts on the whole aren't that litter-aware when out and about? Quite often see various crap when in national parks in Spain/Italy/Croatia (France, not so much)

Having said all this, isn't chalk still technically banned in Font?

[chris20]

I got back from Albarracine last week, I reckon I could have filled quite a few pages of the donkey line of shame thread.  I didn't actually see any turds but plenty of bog roll especially around the parking area

[dave]

Last time I was there (about 2008 ish?) not only was climbing visible from the road totally normal (that vertical wall with the huge 8a dyno is roadside, as is the one with some big 8 a female Brit recently had a video online of) but we saw people clearly squatting down for a shit about 50foot from the road, clearly visible to passing cars. Not heard much recently to make me think that has changed.

The whole situation there seems ridiculous. If the rules were to be adhered to then it would be a start if sponsored climbers in vids would play by them. But equally the rules are so ridiculous as to be unworkable and unenforceable. Basically they amount to saying climbers need to be invisible to non-climbers. Nice idea but not going to happen.

[Paul B]

I've been. I actually didn't see any poo, despite being on the lookout for it after friends had warned me it was everywhere. This was some years ago, so I've no idea what it's like now.

Likewise, I don't understand why the climbers/authority in climbing doesn't do something about this.

I haven't been for a number of years now having heard that some of the temporary bans were now less temporary (although once again many climbers simply didn't abide by those rules) but I went a few times and there was a marked deteroriation each time.

I simply don't understand why the Spanish (and it is most noticeable IMO in Spain) think that allowing people to park up and stay overnight is a good idea when there's simply no toilet facilties nearby. It's almost inevitable. I also don't understand why people who go bouldering willingly opt to take a dump underneath chalked up bits of rock (i.e. Parking area).

Someone mentioned recently (Ben D?) that the camping in Margarlef was being moved due to these 'issues'. I'm imagining the olive farmer who has the fields next to this doesn't get much for his olives these days!

[fatdoc]

just use Pof?? for the rock.. not yr arse

seriously... its a shame that its come to this..iirc something happened a bit similar in the Calanques.. esp the turd issue.. in the late 80s..

[Doylo]

There's no bit of spare ground without shit within a half mile radius of that Margalef campsite .

[fatdoc]

why the fuck even consider going there the??

turd holiday anyone?

lets chow down 

[cha1n]

There is a large amount of shit there but you'd generally only notice it if you were staying in the car park in a van and had to venture out for one yourself.

I stayed in the car park for a few weeks and whilst I'd Bury my waste, there's plenty of people who walk about 10 paces before squatting down.

I was away for a year and Albarracin was the only place where I was unfortunate enough to pass a handful of people taking a shit in the morning. Many also think that covering their feces with toilet paper was effective as burying it - especially if the toilet paper was pink.

I think the chalk issue is massively down to the rock colour and most of the feces under boulder problems will have been left my tourists visiting the underwhelming pinturas.

I never got a friendly vibe from Albarracin. There aren't many proper locals who look out for it and respect it. Lots of Germans powering screaming all over the place. Nice rock though.

[petejh]

I was going to write something about climbers shitting all over the place after returning from Geyikbayiri a month ago (and it's not even 'that' bad there cf. some places).

It boils down to: if you're involved in developing a climbing area and it's any good i.e. it'll attract crowds, then you are responsible for ensuring that the 3rd thing on the list, right after 'work out approach trail' and 'bolt first route', is 'build toilet facility' if one doesn't already exist very close by. Even then, at crags where there are campsite facilities at the start and end of the day (ceuse / geyikbayiri) it doesn't work well as any meander into the trees during busy times at those places will confirm.

Some popular sport crags make me feel ashamed to be involved in the activity. I came away from Trebanna in Geyakbayiri thinking it's a disgrace to develop an area and attract large crowds of people - all spending hours in one place - into that beautiful canyon yet have no regard for where the inevitable lorry-load of feces is going to end up, i.e.20 yards away in the trees and leading down to the stream. Near to where the local farmers were herding their goats along the path. I'm just as guilty as everyone else.

I've been to crags where people have clearly put in the thought and effort - Lake Louise and Skaha (and Citdibi in Turkey) - where long-drops have been built by local volunteers; even solar-powered composting toilets at skaha iirc. UIAA / regional bodies could do something useful here along with contributions (of the monetary kind) by visiting climbers.

[Muenchener]

It is definitely a problem, and let he who is without sin fling the first turd: I've had to nip into the trees now and again, although I do try to avoid it. At a lot of crags in Austria, and at the most popular crag in the Frankenjura (Weissenstein) there are portaloos near the base of the crag. I don't know who organises & pays for them, whether it's climbing clubs or the municipalities.

Even where there are some facilities, climbers seem to be collectively unable to make any effort to keep them halfway decent. See e.g. Magic Wood campsite. That was in a disgraceful state when I was there last summer.

It's a similar issue to huts in the Alps, which I think are a shame in some ways, but not as much of a shame as the state of popular bivvy sites would be if the huts didn't exist. I don't know what the answer is to this. Totalitarian over-regulation a la US national parks and total suburbanisation a la Alps both work to a degree but also have their drawbacks.

[petejh]

It's a tricky one for sure and I think it's one of those problems that people put their head in the sand over. There isn't much kudos or glory to be had from digging a long-drop or funding the construction of a composting loo.

But there should be!

[JohnM]

When I went to Albarracin there was a big group of Spanish climbers all sat round in one of the main areas getting stoned.  One guy walked about 5 yards away from the main group, pulled his kecks down and curled one out while carrying on his conversation.  No wipe, kecks back up, job done.  This was right by one of the main boulders in one of the most popular spots.   

[Paul B]

I think that composting toilets are a sensible solution in these areas.

They have them in Austria (lots) and France (Chateauvert) and they work well (although a friend recently said he was bemused to find people were deciding to go to the loo behind the toilet block itself).

I also think climbers as a whole need to get out of the mindset that dropping some load before a redpoint is a necesscity rather than an inconvenience that hadn't been planned for.

I've climbed with people before that have stopped on the way to a crag to buy lunch but wait 15 more minutes until we're at the crag before they make their mark. You have to wonder if there's some kind of appeal to going al fresco (Three nine excluded)?

...and yes, having lived out of a van for a large amount of time I won't be the one flinging the first turd. That said, in the USA I had very little call to do so and if I remember rightly only need to when feeling very ill.

[Andy W]

Shitting in the woods maybe needs another thread? I spent two months sept/oct in Font. I've been going there years and really noticed the increase in two things; babies at the boulders and shitting in the woods. I don't much like babies but really dislike turds amongst the boulders.

I was at the Cuvier bivouac site the night before it shut, good party but sad loss. I fear that the remaining bivouac sites may get shut down as well if climbers continue to treat them badly, ie shitting in the woods. Watching people wandering off into the woods with a toilet roll at Bouron Marlotte, was unbelievable FFS a toilet is provided! watching people pissing in full view of local picnickers also wont help keep the site open.

So I agree its time that the modern generation of boulderers take some responsibilty and generate some awareness.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, I don't get it.
I've been hauling around shit bags for the dog for years, they just as often get used for the kids and I've taken many of mine home over the years...
Might sound gross, but have used an upturned helmet, with a carrier bag spread around it; as a porta-loo on a few ledges/porta-ledges too.

Actually...

There really should be a separate "Do Bears...?" Thread...

[bigironhorse]

I don't think that the shit itself is as big off an issue as the paper people leave, when living out of a van around europe this summer I noticed loads of paper but not big piles of crap all over the place. If people did their business a reasonable distance (5-10mins walk?) from tracks and paths, the crag etc I don't think it would be such an issue so long as they covered it over and carried the paper out. (put it in a coke bottle, screw the lid on tight, bin.)

[bigironhorse]

I've not been to Albarracin though so I don't know about there specifically..

[Wood FT]

(put it in a coke bottle, screw the lid on tight, bin.)

Oaks.... shit...... in a coke bottle? what do you do, thumb it in or make sure you had a Buna the night before?

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, I don't get it.
I've been hauling around shit bags for the dog for years, they just as often get used for the kids and I've taken many of mine home over the years...
Might sound gross, but have used an upturned helmet, with a carrier bag spread around it; as a porta-loo on a few ledges/porta-ledges too.

Actually...

There really should be a separate "Do Bears...?" Thread...

[bigironhorse]

(put it in a coke bottle, screw the lid on tight, bin.)

Oaks.... shit...... in a coke bottle? what do you do, thumb it in or make sure you had a Buna the night before?

Just the paper Guy. You could probably manage with a 2 liter though... or not

[kelvin]

Sunny Delight bottles might work.

[petejh]

A Dr Pepper bottle full of runny shit would still taste better than Dr Pepper.

[tomtom]

It's bizarre how people pick up their dog shit but not their own... Personally I'd rather bag up my own logs than a dogs..

[Doylo]

Dog shit tastes nicer though

[cha1n]

I'd wager that I'm one of minority that have a small spade in my climbing bag. I've been surprised how many climbers I've met that don't bother.

I don't really come from an outdoors background and thought that because most climbers do that they'd have some respect for the environment!

[Oldmanmatt]

I'd wager that I'm one of minority that have a small spade in my climbing bag. I've been surprised how many climbers I've met that don't bother.

I don't really come from an outdoors background and thought that because most climbers do that they'd have some respect for the environment!

Yep, we do.


With our Petroleum based clothing/ropes/bags/pads.

And Aluminium?
Fricken Eco bomb nightmare from Bauxite mine to expensive/energy intense refining, to clipping bolts/making a brew...


And that isn't even a tenth of it.

Actually the shit is probably the least harmful thing we carry to the crag...

[Bonjoy]

I'd wager that I'm one of minority that have a small spade in my climbing bag. I've been surprised how many climbers I've met that don't bother.

I don't really come from an outdoors background and thought that because most climbers do that they'd have some respect for the environment!

I personally think this is the solution. I can't see climbers getting in the habit of bringing turds home in a bag, especially if they are in a van away from civilization for long periods of time and relying on going before you get to the crag is predictably unreliable. We had a dedicated digging instrument on our road trip. If you are staying in one place the trick is to dig tomorrows hole today. There's nothing worse than trying to urgently dig a pit in hard stony ground after a strong morning coffee. Like others have said the paper is often the bigger issue as the actual muck biodegrades fairly quickly. I look forward to the day when climbing shops sell branded turd trowels.

[Muenchener]

I look forward to the day when climbing shops sell branded turd trowels.

[andy_e]

[duncan]

Like others have said the paper is often the bigger issue as the actual muck biodegrades fairly quickly. I look forward to the day when climbing shops sell branded turd trowels.

Lightening the load before getting to the crag is clearly optimal but, in case you can't manage this, I suggest people carry a children's hand trowel (and a cigarette lighter for the paper).

A good trowel. A ziplock bag in a dedicated dry-bag works for the paper if it's too damp to burn.

[tomtom]

Shit Shovel Shirley?

[Paul B]

I personally think this is the solution.

It's a practical (attainable) solution but depending on the area I can't see human waste in any quantity doing wonders for nearby groundwater (I'm thinking of places like Albarracin here rather than the travelling climber in general).

Reducing the need (IMO) should come first, for instance, you shouldn't need to "go" when spending the evening at the Cornice (after parking at Millers Dale).

[tomtom]

I personally think this is the solution.

Reducing the need (IMO) should come first, for instance, you shouldn't need to "go" when spending the evening at the Cornice (after parking at Millers Dale).

Precisely - I've never needed to drop a log at a UK bouldering venue... why not go at home, or the cafe or any where else...? Maybe I just don't like a breeze around my straining ringpeice

[andy_e]

Why did I decide to read this whilst eating my tea?

[tomtom]

Cut out the middle man - flush your dinner down the pan

[petejh]

Reduce Reuse Recycle

[Oldmanmatt]

Reduce Reuse Recycle

Poo, Package, Perambulate...

[Hot Muffin]

can we use pof?

[tomtom]

can we use pof?

I guess you could cover your poo with a pile of powdered pof.. At least it would smell nice..