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Final hard pitch on Dawn wall redpointed (Read 98711 times)

andy popp

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I agree,  especially as this push seems to be going pretty quickly so far.

kelvin

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They could easily have had a third member of the team to just do all the jugging and hauling, so I really don't see the problem with other people helping them with the legwork. It's not like they're chipping holds is it?

It's great, it really is.

abarro81

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On the support team thing, that's also been done before - e.g. Steph Davis on Salathe where her partner jugged out to go get more food and water for her as they ran out whilst she was sturggling to RP the headwall, then abbed back in from the top with it. I think pretty much anything goes in terms of logistics.

petejh

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I hope they're going to brush their donkey tick marks off afterwards... #hallofshame :P


Lopez

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Nitpicking... I think it's more a case of publicly showing my ignorance in Yosemite logistics and ethics :whistle: No intention on taking anything away from them, this is one of the most deserved ascents ever with mahoosive amounts of effort and time put into it.

Just that those tactics seem 'weird' from the comfort of my armchair while sporting a total score of fuck-all experience in Yosemite climbing  :popcorn:

csurfleet

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Amazing stuff! I reckon in a lot of ways the ethics of this are spot on - as so much of it is recorded each day (what happened, how, by who etc) they are being incredibly honest about how it was done. If anyone want to do better then they know exactly how! ;)

petejh

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 :agree: Yeah this. When all the tricks and logistical aids are out in the open I think it sets the style bar clearly positioned for future wads to aspire to raise it - i.e. a self-contained team, no fixed ropes, climbing each pitch clean in sequence from the ground up - so no going past a pitch to camp out, before you've led it clean - is the gold standard to aspire to (onsight or flash is obviously the real gold standard, but that's probably a decade or three down the line on this route).

Wil

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I suppose the very honest approach to this attempt is making the tactics all the more visible (and not detracting from the ascent I don't think). It does highlight how arbitrary big wall free climbing styles are when it comes to redpointing stuff over any significant timescale. Although with a constant camp supply, and sleeping above where you've climbed to it does seem odd that it isn't regarded as done until the pitches are climbed in the correct order.

I guess these things have to be viewed as "proof of concept", they're setting the bar and showing this can be done, will anyone even equal it? I can't believe the perseverance and self belief these guys must have had to stick at the project this whole time. I'm excited for them if they do it!

Danny

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I hope they're going to brush their donkey tick marks off afterwards... #hallofshame :P



I'm genuinely inspired by this. I'll eat my shorts if anyone onsights this, in three decades, or three hundred years. It'll never happen. I would, however, condone tick marking el cap from top to bottom to see Ondra and Megos give it their best ground up effort.

DAVETHOMAS90

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Shoot me down in flames, but I think it is a shame to resort to tactics that do detract from the purity of ascent, where it would seem - logistically at least - easy to do otherwise. I don't think one's views are easily discounted simply because you're not familiar with big wall climbing or Yosemite ethics.

Neither does having so much media coverage make their approach some how more ethical. Though, yes, it does make the tactics used transparent. Is that a benefit? It can work both ways, either setting a precedent, or encouraging improvement.

I suppose you can view this attempt in two ways (amongst many others of course). As a concept - the route in and of itself, or in context - i.e. a major part of the challenge is that the route does go up a huge cliff.

In the first case of course, many more tactics - such as camping above your high-point - are consistent with the goal. One personal gripe is the use of tick marks "pre-placed"; would be fine for getting things wired, but a shame they're still there for the ascent. In this case - as a concept - you could visualise the route as a ground level traverse - all that matters is climbing one pitch after the other.

Then of course, we have the route in context. In this case, approaching everything from below would seem to make sense.

Some particularly personal views of my own are that abbing to the ground is fine. Just don't do anything that would have involved prior access to the top of the route - like pre-placing ropes, gear, tick-marks etc.

As far as "just" doing the pitches in sequence is concerned, I suppose the journey is arriving at the point where that approach is viable. Having the courage and vision to commit to the project.

Surely, any criticism is warranted. We all like to be able to relate to what others do on the rock, and a style more consistent with our own personal ethic is always more inspiring.

fatdoc

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Cool post.

Duma

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Did anyone tweet Kevin re tactics when he was doing a q and a last night (our time)? I'm not on twitter so not sure how it works but #Askdawnwall, and apparently nothing off the table?

duncan

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The Twitter questioning was mostly pretty innocuous "what's your favourite mythical creature". Jorgeson was very clear about what represented "a send": one climber (ideally both) must climb every pitch without falls, no skipping pitches or returning to the ground at any point. This means redpointing each pitch, not doing the whole climb without a fall "@kjorgeson: The chances of doing that, on this style granite, on this route, for where climbing standards are now = ~0%". This is Alex Huber's definition, more rigorous than the more traditional 'team free' where someone in the team climbs each pitch, typically alternating leads. He was also pretty confident that the route wouldn't be repeated in a day any time soon!

Assuming it does go', how long before a second ascent I wonder? As with The Salathe, my money is we will wait a few years before an awesomely strong, talented, professional and tenacious European sports-climber takes the time to master the intricacies of Yosemite granite.

I agree the fixed ropes and Sherpas feels a bit wrong but I suspect they are as much for the benefit of the media extravaganza and don't materially benefit Jorgeson and Caldwell a great deal. Going capsule style, with two lead climbers and two freight handlers wouldn't be any harder. The hauling is pretty easy on that part of El Cap. and the planned two weeks means the loads would not be absurd with a good 3:1 set-up.

I'm enjoying the parallels with Harding's original Wall of Early Morning Light ascent: the protracted siege, ethical controversies, and media frenzy calculatedly cultivated by the protagonists. Only the high-profile sponsor has changed: from Christian Brothers winery to Adidas outdoors!

DAVETHOMAS90

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Hi.

Some of this seems bizarre to me. An exciting project, and an exiting concept, but I find some of the "fudging" quite painful - and a lot of that is coming from us (?), in our attempts at making clear and consistent sense of the whole.

"I agree the fixed ropes and sherpas.." ..with whom? .."no.. returning to the ground at any point" - but having a base above your high point is OK, along with others to go to/from the ground/top for you?

I'm someone who finds muddy water a little difficult to deal with at times, but I have a feeling we all find it easier when we know just what we're talking about/dealing with - more than anything, so that we know how, when and what to celebrate.

In a way, staying on the wall - in the circumstances - seems a contrivance, maybe to make things seem one way to the media, when they aren't quite. Is "Going capsule style.. with two freight ("No! I said I want cold beers! Go down and get me some more..") handlers" really capsule style?

It feels to me that we're missing out a few ethical steps here. Thinking about the redpoint ethic, we accept it, not because it's good style, but because we've chosen it as the lowest definable, acceptable categorisation of ascent. We know where we are with it, and where we go from there.

I'm still not really with the "don't go to the ground thing" - especially when anything else goes. Is it OK to lower a site hut into position - maybe with a shower and TV? Err.. why not.

You see, I'm not saying things shouldn't be done this way.. any excuse for creature comforts, yes please.

Is the next available improvement - assuming it "goes" already - to be measured in the usual terms of speed, number of pitches flashed, falls, first no swinging leads etc. Maybe other apparent improvement in style - capsule, no other support etc - occurs as a result of other improvement in ability/efficiency, rather than because it "should" be done that way?

Doylo

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James Malloch

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Tommy sent pitch 15 (5.14d) according to Facebook. Kevin hadn't at the time.

Its getting closest now...

andy popp

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Whose FB? If so then there's only one more 5.14 pitch remaining. Amazing!

James Malloch

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Oops, forgot this link. Some page called Corey Rich Productions.

https://www.facebook.com/Corey.Rich.Productions/posts/940799295938409:0

James Malloch

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Not sure what happened since though. Wonder what'll happen if Kevin doesn't get it?

Ru

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Some of this seems bizarre to me. An exciting project, and an exiting concept, but I find some of the "fudging" quite painful - and a lot of that is coming from us (?), in our attempts at making clear and consistent sense of the whole.

I'm guessing that after several years trying this wall they will have settled on a style thats the best they can realistically hope for whilst still having a good enough chance of success to justify investing more time. This will necessarily involve a fudge of some sort and the fudges they will have settled on will likely be dependant on a whole host of factors - what they'd ideally like, what they feel they would be satisfied with, what they will get the least criticism for in the post match analysis, what they have the remaining psyche for and so on. Some choices will undoubtedly be individual to the route and without going on it at all, never mind for weeks on end in freezing conditions, it's probably hard to rationalise all the choices they have made. Tommy has never previously backed down from going harder and longer on El Cap and is the most experienced person on the planet at that style of climbing and environment. I'd trust his judgement.

James Malloch

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From Tommy's facebook:

Quote
One step closer! I sent pitch 15 last night. Keven got oh so close several times. I am sure he could have done it if he didn't have to tape two key fingers. Weather it's getting hard to sleep forecast looks splitter! It's getting hard to sleep due to the excitement I feel. Photo @brettlowell taken form the most exposed spot on the planet.


andy popp

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Thanks James. According to the eveningsends rundown that leaves 14a, 13c and 13d and then 5.11 and 12 to the top - I think they're going to do it. I would never have expected that when they started out last week.

I'm sure they must be pushing to make the style the best they can, freeing every pitch in a single push that has so far taken only a week or so, up on the wall in the depths of winter. Caldwell in particular has surely invested too much in this over too many years to risk taking short cuts on the actual climbing.The logistical support doesn't seem OTT all things considered.

Lopez

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Ha, ha! This climb attempt has gone so 'mainstream' that they even get streakers invading the pitch. Awesome  :lol:

http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-132015-special-dawn-wall-edition-day-8


Doylo

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The logistical support doesn't seem OTT all things considered.

No it doesn't. People who are questioning this aspect should  remember there's two 9a pitches on it! It's hard to comprehend .

DAVETHOMAS90

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In reply to Ru.

Hi there. I think the criticisms are entirely valid, though readily misinterpreted - mostly concerning "let's be clear about what is going on here", and what isn't. Less about what is valid and what isn't.

As I said in my post, and what I've tried to allude to, is that by not making a valid critique - for instance, just accepting others' judgement (something I prefer not to do) - we're doing as much fudging as anyone.

It's a chosen style - and possibly a more established one than many of us who haven't climbed on "The Big Stone" may appreciate. However, there can be a lot of hyperbole, media hype, and not a little contrivance, for the benefit of a good story.

Just out of interest, on hard aid pitches, it sounds as though (was talking to Fatdoc earlier - hi, good to see you!) abbing to the ground is accepted. As it would be here.

It would seem that staying on the wall is of no great significance - from an ethical perspective - and possibly chosen because of the media coverage, sponsor support etc.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:47:37 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

 

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