[Duncan campbell]

So, soon (in the next year) my final pair of Anasazi Whites will be no more. I have basically only worn anasazi's since starting climbing around 6 years ago and so am at a bit of a loss as to what to wear on my feet for technical, edgey climbing. I have a pair of the new Pinks and I don't think they are as good, they aren't even the same as the old pinks.

I basically want a relatively stiff shoe that I can wear for everything (in order of importance):  trad at Big G, cloggy, pembroke, high tor etc > sport climbing in Spain and occasionally the Peak > Bouldering > Grit sketching when shoes are knackered.

I think I have skinny feet but I might just have small feet (take Whites in a 5 and have 6.5 sized feet)

Was looking at: Scarpa Instinct VS ( look relatively stiff though maybe too downturned for a tradding shoe?)

Scarpa Vapour V (Scarpa are due to be softening this up according to rep at outdoor show so dont want to get addicted and then have them taken too!)

Scarpa Boostic (Too downturned for a punter like me?)

La Sportiva Miura VS/Lace-up (Lace up look like white? VS supposed to be a bit stiffer?)

La Sportiva katana Lace-up/Velcro (Lace up look very good for stiffness but too wide?)

Tenaya?? (Not sure about this option)


I am nowhere near being a wad but I climb at an OK level, having climbed up to font 7B, french 7b+ and E5 - looking to climb more 7A+/Bs, push into 7c and climb more E5s so guess I'm looking to go slightly more downturned than Whites. I'm weak so need to use my feet well so like good shoes.

Any opinions, pointers, tips or suggestions? Not in any great hurry as have a nicely broken in pair of whites ready for the trad season next year, but as always, hope to climb enough to wear them out fairly quickly!

Dunc

[cofe]

The Foundry have whites in most sizes. Stock up!

http://www.cragxclimbing.com/collections/shoes-footwear/products/5-10-anasazi-v2-blanco

[Duncan campbell]

I don't want to stock up!! I need to go cold turkey as I can't afford to stock up on more than one pair and I'm keen to sample what else is out there.

5.10 build quality is pretty poor too - though the rubber is good...

Anyway gimme alternatives not more temptation!

[Muenchener]

Sportiva katana Lace-up/Velcro (Lace up look very good for stiffness but too wide?)

Tried both, found Miura Laces much better than either. Katana V is not very supportive. Katana Lace is wider than Miura Lace and didn't fit me well at all, whereas Miura Lace fit me perfectly. I had both in 42, measured them and the Katanas were 5mm wider. Super build quality though and probably ace if they fit.

[T_B]

Scarpa Instinct Lace ups - best all round bouldering / trad / sport climbing shoe I've ever owned. Hang on, they seem to have discontinued it and replaced with the overly-stiff/less sensitive Velcro

(Apparently Rock On in London have loads of Instinct Lace Ups, but don't bother looking for them on their website...)

[psychomansam]

The Vapour lace are a great shoe, but stiff and better for edging the the velcro. If they soften the whole range, you might have options to go to lace after the current velcro...

[cheque]

Tenaya?? (Not sure about this option)

The yellow lace-ups are good with a better heel than Anasazi's and are very narrow, so great for edging but painful to smear in. I only wear them on limestone myself. The rubber's not as good - feels more plasticky than Five Tens.

[ghisino]

i am probably swimming against the current but i really like the new pinks.

but probably i've been using them on terrains that are favourable to them:
-in fontainebleau the new heel really shines and they are a better allrounder on smeary stuff while still being edgey enough on the small gratton feet.
-worn half size bigger than my bouldering choice, they are an awesome compromise for granite crack climbing and esp on mp (flatter, more comfy w/o sacrificing that much edging).

I can only see their inferiority in a specialized application perspective- as an ultimate edging shoe they are clearly not as amazing.


tenayas: soft, with very soft rubber...

[IanP]

The yellow lace-ups are good with a better heel than Anasazi's and are very narrow, so great for edging but painful to smear in. I only wear them on limestone myself. The rubber's not as good - feels more plasticky than Five Tens.

I like the lace-ups (Masai), seem like an excellent replacement for my old pink addiction with, as said, much better heel.  They are very narrow.  Also recently bought the velcro Ra's, not quite as narrow ( though still not wide) but pretty stiff and initial impressions very good. 

BTW on the scarpa front I always find the forefoot too wide so not a good choice for narrow feet IMO.

[TobyD]

looking to climb more 7A+/Bs, push into 7c and climb more E5s so guess I'm looking to go slightly more downturned than Whites. I'm weak so need to use my feet well so like good shoes.
Any opinions, pointers, tips or suggestions?
Dunc

I'd wholly disagree with the assumption that harder moves merits more downturned shoes. Your choice of trad destinations would typically suggest something with a pit of support, but flat -ish. Go with whatever suits your own foot shape and climbing style best! Downturned usually works best on steep and pockety. Personally i'd use a pretty flat shoes (anasazi vcs) on almost anything, especially up to 20 deg overhanging. Other people prefer downturned on virtually anything....

[Steve R]

Look for pretty much the same requirements as you dunc - slimish, stiffish allrounders.  Personally I've found whites pretty good but a bit clompy feeling and uncomfortable for ages till they're broken in by which point they're past their best.  (Therefore not sure my opinion counts for much I'll fire away through your list anyway:)

instinct vs - never had, don't look like a tradder?

boostic - ditto

vapour V - got, seem good on lime (and on board).  too stiff/not enough feedback for grit yet but imagine they'll be quite good in time.  Relatively unoffensive colours for scarpa.  (I coloured in those annoying white spots on the velcro strap)  These are quite wide though but there's a lady version in turquoise which look fly and presumably thinner.  TOo uncomforatable for long trad (despite feeling comfortable when you put them on, pos just me)

muira - never had

katana - had velcros before and they were really good thinking back.  Stiff but still sensitive.  (sportiva prob the best shoes aren't they?)

Tenaya - had intis ras and masais but not ossis (can't face the blue bit on the heel and over 100quid)  Intis and masais found awesome at first and work well straight out of the box (no skiddy break in period like 5:10)  but don't last long - bag out, lose stiffness and start rolling relatively quickly.  Ra's too clompy at first but pretty good overall - longer 'good window'.  not sure about the orange straps though.  Intis my favourite, quite slim.  same rubber as sportiva.  One thing I don't lke about tenayas is the middle of the sole seems too high, arched and floppy. don't know if it has much bearing overall though.

assume you don't like anasazi velcros? too wide?  have you tried the lady version (this colour ) ? not perfect but pretty good and lasted well, prefer to normal velcors. c4 like whites.

   

[siderunner]

I'm in the same boat. I wear whites in a 6, though have wide feet.

You could try 5.10 blackwings (hope I got that name right). I like mine, but they're too narrow for my spade like feet and give me pins and needles in my little toe - so I only use them for bouldering. Slightly downturned, feel precise to me.

I'm also using pinks. Agree they're not perfect edgers, but I reckon great where sensitivity is valuable: granite and grit (and slopey indoor blobs!).

My best find so far has been Velcro miuras. They're damn stiff; and fairly comfortable for me. They do have a weird shape for edging on vert stuff; but are very good for front pointing and pulling in w toes on steep ground. I still need to get used to them, at the moment I don't trust them the way I do with my whites; perhaps this is cos they're so stiff and so insensitive?

It's frustrating to go through this when you'd found your perfect shoe already!!

[moose]

Muira VS are currently my favourite shoes - start stiff but reasonably comfortable straight from the box (they relax just enough pretty soonish).  Precise on tiny featured lime, once worn-in they smear well.  An old pair (retired from Malham duties) are now my preferred choice for long bouldering session indoors and on anything outdoors that doesn't demand warrant squeezing into dragons.

Whenever I go back to my old Anasazi VCSs, they feel just too broad and clumpy on anything but smeary grit.  As always though, wmmv - my feet just happen to naturally follow the curved shape of Muira VSs - others might find them too aggressively down-turned.  Similarly, blanco were a bit too narrow and stiff for me - felt like low-profile clogs (though, I suspect with a some effort, they would have been really good).

[Muenchener]

Tenaya -  Ra's too clompy at first but pretty good overall

+1. Bought a pair of these sized up a bit as comfy multipitch shoes for a trip to Ailefroide last year. They do seem to stick to granite slabs ok but they are by a wide margin the least sensitive shoes I can remember, disconcertingly so.

[Johnny Brown]

Tenaya Masais would definitely fit the bill as a white replacement, with a better heel to boot. They aren't much more aggressive though. Unlike others mine never stretched at all which having wide feet meant they have spent ten years in the cellar only coming out if I have a stiff boot emergency.

[groovedog]

Scarpa Magos could fit the bill. Very good on uk limestone, quite a large toe box so suit broard feet, but also very neat lacing so can take any space in at different points where there is space. I used to wear 5,10's but after trying scarpa never looked back, better fit for me personally.

Also worth a try, scarpa stix, depsite the down turn still very good even on grit slab smears, not something you'd expect but seem to work very well. Also good edging too.

I found the Scarpa instinct VCS, too hard a rubber (edge), and not as good as magos on the limestone, but a lot of people rave about them.

[groovedog]

Also the build quality on Scarpa is very good. The Italians know how to make shoes.

[cheque]

Scarpa Magos could fit the bill. Very good on uk limestone

I couldn't get on with these at all- very hard and thick-feeling under the toes. I never had a clue what I was standing on- totally different to Anasazis. Each to his own though I suppose as some people seem to love them- the lacing is indeed very good.

[haydn jones]

I've switched from the whites after having 5 pairs in a row to the muras velcro. The toe box is just as good and stiff. The heel hook is supreem best heel hook shoe I've ever owned. The toe hook is shit. But I'm gonna try putting stealth paint on it to see if that helps.

[haydn jones]

Oh and with the sizing I was 7 in whites and 39 in muras which equates to 6. 39.5 felt really tight but I thought fuck it they'll stretch and went down 1 more. Had them about a month now and they're still nice and stiff

[remus]

With Scarpas I think it's largely down to the fit and whether you mind a bit of a brutal break in period. My experience is that they tend to start very stiff but soften up nicely with a bit of use.

Boostic/booster s have a fairly similar shape. Boostic is very stiff, ok on the lime but i think theyd be pretty rubbish on anything smeary. Rubbish toe hooking and medium heel hooking. Booster S are a lot more sensitive but correspondingly soft, dont want to be wobbling your way up a gogarth horror show in them. Heel is a little better that then boostic but toe is still pretty rubbish.

Vapour VS are the best of the bunch in my opinion. Pretty stiff to start with but soften up nicely with time. Once broken in I find them usable for trad stuff, though you'll want to take them off at the belays. Heel and toe hooking are both mega.

Vapour V are pretty relaxed in terms of fit. Very nice heel but terrible toe hooking. If you size them tight they can work pretty well for hard lime/gogarth stuff, if you size them loose they can make a very good all day show. Your choice really.

My vote would be for the Vapour VS.

[T_B]

Scarpa Magos could fit the bill. Very good on uk limestone, quite a large toe box so suit broard feet, but also very neat lacing so can take any space in at different points where there is space. I used to wear 5,10's but after trying scarpa never looked back, better fit for me personally.

I had two pairs of Magos and would not recommend them for tradding at Gogarth/Cloggy! They are massively downturned/aggressive/stiff. Anything that requires putting much weight through your feet would be crippling. And I generally like the Scarpa fit/downturned shoes and I also weigh a lot (another factor in choosing shoes and how stiff/downturned they are).

I agree with you though, Scarpas a way more hard wearing than any other shoes I've ever had. I despair that my wife continues to buy 5.10 Velcros.

[abarro81]

Instinct lace would be, and is, my choice of Scarpa for UK climbing (Booster S is nice too but more suited to steep Euro stuff)... but you'll have to stock up or find a way to get them from Italy as Mountain Boot don't import them any more. (Or everyone could bombard them with requests; if they brought them back it would make my life much easier!)

[groovedog]

I had two pairs of Magos and would not recommend them for tradding at Gogarth/Cloggy! They are massively downturned/aggressive/stiff. Anything that requires putting much weight through your feet would be crippling. And I generally like the Scarpa fit/downturned shoes and I also weigh a lot (another factor in choosing shoes and how stiff/downturned they are).

It is wierd how different people find the same shoes, I've climbed all sorts in magos, trad techy bouldering, slabs, euro sport, it's the power through the toe I love, you can stand on anything and it feels solid. I guess I just prefer down turned shoes. Horses for courses.

[chris j]

I've been using the Vapour Velcro for the last few years, been through maybe 3 pairs + resoles. I found the latest pair stiffer and more clumpy than previously, they have certainly taken more time to wear in than previous pairs. It has taken a bit of time to get to the point I can tell exactly what I'm standing on. My best pair is coming to the end of their first resole. Once they soften up a little I've found them superb on vertical to overhanging lime, used them on up to 7c+ sport (ansteys). Not so hot on slabs. In contrast to remus I find that there is too much dead space in the heel for any confidence with anything other than the simplest heel hooks (I may have narrow heels).

If anyone can offer a shoe (preferably velcro) with a similar fit but a tighter heel I'd be in your debt!

[siderunner]

Oh and with the sizing I was 7 in whites and 39 in muras which equates to 6. 39.5 felt really tight ...

I'll echo that. I messed up w my Miuras sizewise: bought a pair that felt really tight and now after abt 10 sessions they're half a size too loose. Guess they relax more than whites/pinks ...

[Duncan campbell]

Thanks, all some interesting and often contrasting opinions!

Steve: I have tried Anasazi VCS in both colours and don't find them anywhere near as stiff as whites and therefore pretty crap - I have weak feet I think!

Toby: I don't want to go massively more downturned, just a bit in order to get more force through my feet? I wouldn;t look twice at Dragons or futuras for example...

Remus: Do you mean Instinct VS or Vapour V?

I guess as I suspected, I'll just have to try a load on...

[Wood FT]

walk around on your tip toes more Dunc, instead of that cockney walk, and you'll  have strong feet in no time

[Johnny Brown]

Watch in particular the climbers moving up vertical ground. Watch carefully how they place their feet. See how as they pad their toes downwards onto the foothold, they continue to drop their whole foot down by an inch or so after the toe has made contact.

As far as I'm concerned this is just good footwork. It's how you get your feet to stick regardless of the aggressiveness of the boot. I haven't noticed any need to do this more with modern boots but perhaps mine aren't aggressive enough.

walk around on your tip toes more Dunc, instead of that cockney walk, and you'll  have strong feet in no time

When I was young and naive I met a old climber who told me the reason Pat Littlejohn was so good was because 'he was a toewalker at school'.

[Wood FT]

When I was young and naive I met a old climber who told me the reason Pat Littlejohn was so good was because 'he was a toewalker at school'.

Got to be some truth behind the myth though hey. After Dave Mc pissed Walk of Life wasn't one of the contributing reasons cited as being that he spends a lot of his time front pointing and so would've felt less fatigued chumming around on his feet?

(Source: I think it was Bransby in an onstage interview with a bunch of other climbers, including Pearson, which was well awkward...)

[tomtom]

I dont think its downturned boots - I think its anything with a bunched up toebox - this forces the foot into a downturn position anyway and you get the strength of the shoe from the arch of the foot with the rubber acting below holding the points of the arch together as it were... If you climb barefoot or with a super soft non downturn slipper (I've got some supermoccs that are like this) then edges and toe points are climbed very differently...

Anyway...

The findings of my last 12 months of shoe research (based on using Scarpa instinct VS, Instinct Slipper and 5:10 Anasazi Velcro and SupermoccII)  is:

Scarpa better fit for wider feet (mine bulge out of the side of 5:10's- makes outside edges a little worse..)

5:10 rubber performs better on COLD grit - Scarpa better on WARMER grit/sandstone/lime...

[abarro81]

Conversely, I have fairly narrow and quite low volume feet, and find the scarpa instinct lace a much better fit than any 5.10. The slipper is also the only slipper I've ever managed to get to work right for me..  The velcros don't fit me at all though.

[tomtom]

Conversely, I have fairly narrow and quite low volume feet, and find the scarpa instinct lace a much better fit than any 5.10. The slipper is also the only slipper I've ever managed to get to work right for me..  The velcros don't fit me at all though.

Yeah - the instinct slipper is a remarkably versatile (and comfy) shoe once you get past the initial bagging phase.. Velcros I'm not so sure of.. just a little too stiff in the front section to be confident for smeary stuff.. I tend to use them for small precise holds/edges..

I've no experience of the lace ups though... any thoughts on the rubber performance?

[ghisino]

OT

permanent (with a stiffener, like the Sportiva P3 platform) and temporary (downturn is shaped only in rubber)

the p3 if i understood it well is not a stiffener/traditional midsole but rather a sort of elastic rand tensioning the shoe underneath the sole, which helps retaining the concave sole shape as the shoe breaks up, when you're ot wearing it, when resoled, etc
I think some scarpa models feature something similar, under a different name.

mind that, p3 or not, all downturned shoes, when being used, have some degree of under-foot tensioning coming from the way the last is designed: the sole side of the shoe is short, compared to the same foot size in a relaxed position.

(actually i'd say: all correctly sized climbing shoes have some degree of under-foot tension during use, even very flat ones.)

[abarro81]

I've no experience of the lace ups though... any thoughts on the rubber performance?

Rubber seems to work well on the lime. Prefer the slippers to the laces on smeary grit generally (where by generally I mean on the 5 days per year I go near smeary grit), think that's just because they're sensitive, not sure if the rubber's different