[Paul B]

New thread as to not clutter up the Strings thread:

When we left the UK we took with us an extremely skinny single and an average (8mm) half rope (as well as a static line t0o) as we were limited by baggage and couldn't take everything we wished.

For most of the free stuff we've encountered the single+half has worked as a fairly good pair especially when we've been caught in the rain etc.

In Yosemite we bought a 10mm single for using on aid routes as the other rope would have taken a beating and quickly become useless as half of the pair.

Unfortunately we seem to have damaged our half rope right in the middle. Its not showing core yet but the sheath is deteriorating in this section at a rate that makes it clear that it won't survive for much longer (although it will be re-purposed rather than binned). Our skinny single won't survive either.

The problem I'm having is what on earth should I do in terms of ropes now? Currently we're in Squamish where I'd imagine you'd get away with a single rope for almost every retreat but we've only got another week or so here and then we're off to the High Sierras (Incredible Hulk) where a single won't suffice and then onto the CA, Needles.

Currently as I see it the options are:

Our wall single + buy a tag line - I have no experience of using these and will likely give myself horrific drag regardless of the route. The other day when it rained I encountered someone setting one up but instead of watching offered to fix and then drop his line for ease. He'd taken the single through the anchors and clipped it to itself and was busy unfurling a very skinny cord and muttering about using a Tibloc (?) in the setup.

Our wall single + skinny (7.5mm) half rope - I think in the strings thread I mentioned I'd like to avoid going below 8mm as they quite frankly look skinny enough however this may offset the weight of the other rope. The 7.5mm half is reasonably priced too but was only just re-branded as a half rather than twin (Mammut) so maybe this won't last well at all?

Buy two half ropes - expensive, not only for the ropes themselves but the weight when returning. Ouch.

Any clues based on the areas remaining (High Sierras, Needles, Yosemite, Eldorado Canyon & Black Canyon)?

[rosmat]

Hi Paul,

Having used a 6mm tag line previously, some thoughts:

I would advise against it for rock / alpine routes (although they are well suited to pure ice routes). I would go with either a) your single plus a skinny half, or b) a pair of light half ropes

For the following reasons:

1.) If your single gets damaged (e.g. rock fall) you can't lead climb on a tag line, where as you could on a single half rope.
2.) In the past the advantage of tag lines was their lack of weight - but there isn't much difference between a skinny half and a 6mm tag line these days.
3.) If your rope jams when your abseiling a 6mm  is much harder to pull on - trust me I know!
4.) There isn't much difference betwen the cost of a cheap 50m half rope vs 50m of 6mm .
5.) Less drag with half ropes.
6.) More versatility with half ropes.
7.) You can use your half when you get back to the UK - not sure what you'd do with a tag line.

If you're on a budget I would go for a cheap light half rope to pair with your single.

Lastly, if you must ignore all the above and decide to go with a tagline then you need to learn how to use a "biner block" (not a tibloc).

Very basically:
1.) You knot the tagline to your single using an overhand. Pay attention to which side of the knot the  is on (more info here http://vikingalpinism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/using-overhand-knot-with-ropes-of.html#more)

2.) Using a clove hitch attach the single rope to a screw gate carabiner about 6 inches from the knot.

3.) Pass the single though the abseil maillon until the screwgate is against the maillon (i.e. blocking the rope from passing though).

4.) Abseil on the single rope.

5.) Pull the tagline to retrieve the rope.

See here for more info:
http://dyeclan.com/outdoors101/canyoneering101/?page=biner-block

I hope that helps.

[chillax]

Good points above re tag line vs. rope you could feasibly lead on.  A pull-through abseil setup with a biner block is easy to set up and pretty idiot proof. Especially with a tag line (i.e there would be no confusion about which rope to ab on). I've used that setup on all my bails/entirely-warranted-retreats using lead and haul line. Don't see why it wouldn't work with a tag line.

Some info from Fish

Pretty much like this diagram, just with the tag line attached to the "pulldown" side of the lead line.



With thoughtful use of slings, you should manage with a single. All the americans seem to...

[Paul B]

Thanks Rosmat (& Chillax), we've had our fair share of stuck ropes already this trip which did have me worried for a tagline setup. We left Black Velvet Canyon in Red Rocks one day as the only party (of many) with all of our ropes. Most other people were headed back in the morning to retrieve their various hang-ups.

I'm still fairly sure the guy setting up the system mentioned a tibloc. His cord was very skinny (perhaps he mentioned 4-5mm!!! It was certainly packed away into a tiny coil.) so perhaps he was intending on using it for a progress capture device or something, anyway obviously far from standard so I'll ignore it and put it down to mis-hearing, or simply trivia for the future.

There does seem to be quite a difference in price however:
60m Tag line ~$90 (Canadian)
70m Oxygen 8.2 ~ $195
Mammut 7.5mm 60m ~$185
Mammut Phoenix 8.0mm 60m (I think that's the one we'd be retiring which has been awesome) ~$212

Although as you say, back in England I'm going to have one hell of a lot of cord for making prussics!

[Paul B]

I read a bit more (linked from the Fish blog post); where he states he'd be happy to leave a biner un-clipped etc. I don't think he's actually correct, here in Squamish (the Grand Wall for instance), they have huge pear shaped rings on a few of the anchors. I reckon a biner would easily pass through let alone the phantom lockers and other lightweight biners I tend to carry.

[mrjonathanr]

This is a standard roped access 'pull through'.

[Johnny Brown]

This is a standard roped access 'pull through'.

Indeed, which are typically done around beams not through maillons, and even then often jam. This is due to the knot getting halfway through the maillon. The idea of the 'karabiner block' is you clove hitch the krab so it stops this happening. The other way of doing this is to use an ascender - the so-called 'bull-through'. If you look at the right-hand picture above imagine an upside down ascender connected to the abseil line with the back clipped to the krab. When loaded it forms a sling so the pull-through doesn't tighten on the belay, but by clipping the tagline in the right place (the head of the ascender), you can pull the ascender down the rope to retrieve. Its great for impressing IRATA assessors but I wouldn't use it climbing unless I had a very clean pull, in which case I probably wouldn't need it. Yanks love over-complicating shit though - and getting stuck.

[T_B]

Assuming you are planning on doing Positive Vibrations on the Hulk, it's a pretty direct line and you could probably get away with a single rope (there's a rap off the top, but I don't remember it being that long?). It's notoriously stormy in the High Sierras though, so you've got to consider retreat.

Have you got the beta on the approach to the Hulk? Also, it's high enough to feel the altitude - worth bivvying up there unless you're v fit. The descent gully can have snow in it - we got away with approach shoes and the old trick of using rocks as ice axes to dagger your way down.. Should be reet in August, but worth trying to find out how much snow is up there...

[Paul B]

Yanks love over-complicating shit though - and getting stuck.

 

Assuming you are planning on doing Positive Vibrations on the Hulk, it's a pretty direct line and you could probably get away with a single rope (there's a rap off the top, but I don't remember it being that long?). It's notoriously stormy in the High Sierras though, so you've got to consider retreat.

Actually it'll probably just be Red Dihedrals. It's amazing how one tiny fluffy cloud at 9am means massive storm mid afternoon. We learnt this quickly in Tuolumne.

Have you got the beta on the approach to the Hulk? Also, it's high enough to feel the altitude - worth bivvying up there unless you're v fit. The descent gully can have snow in it - we got away with approach shoes and the old trick of using rocks as ice axes to dagger your way down.. Should be reet in August, but worth trying to find out how much snow is up there...

Yes we've got the beta although I think it may have changed yet again. Think we'll bivi so that there's no pressure on Nat for the walk up (which she isn't so keen on), otherwise I'd likely be marching her whilst worrying about time. I believe its been a low snow year but I'll check on Mountain Proj. or Supertopo to see what's what.

Thanks all.

[Paul B]

Bull-thro:


We've purchased the 7.5mm 60m, I'll be very interested to see how it lasts / how much it stretches in a fall!

[Paul B]

We've purchased the 7.5mm 60m, I'll be very interested to see how it lasts / how much it stretches in a fall!

In the interest of public service I thought I'd respond to my own thread to save anyone else making the same mistake; My God this thing is the bain of my existence. Not only will it coil around absolutely anything but I believe Mammut have coated it with something derived from both Teflon and butter that makes other Nylon products (such as the humble prussik) slip like mad regardless of what you do.

Terrifying.

The one saving grace of this type of rope (for me) is that being both a single and a half you get the best of both worlds in situations where the bolts range from completely acceptable to the bolter is trying to kill me, all in 7 or so pitches.