[Stubbs]

Gav could you possibly sum up why you believe that Ben and Jerry weren't outliers and that the UK has been underperforming in sport climbing terms since? I guess this is sort of the root of some of the disagreement on the thread.

[fried]

Also, are we talking about why youngsters with raw talent/ support (in sport climbing) don't perform as well as should be expected, or why the pool of talent isn't bigger in the first place?

[stone]

Someone from Barcelona who lived over here for a year was saying he was astounded by how we could climb outdoors after work all summer. They don't have our long light summer evenings over there apparently.

I think the reason for so many of us all being crap is because the "go with the flow" way to go climbing in the UK entails getting disco leg terrors on runout E1s and believing that if you are scared then you need to keep doing more of that until it no longer scares you (however long that may take).

[Danny]

Another interesting discussion. I’ve enjoyed reading it all, so thanks for the contributions.

FWIW, whilst I don’t doubt that Pygmallion *could* contribute in some way to a glass ceiling kind of effect, it’s clear to me that no one has much more than tenuous anecdotes to bring to the table. I think Stu mentioned that all of the above are likely to play some kind of role. That seems sensible.

I have a few points:

1.   When referring to ‘loads of studies’ supporting one point or another it’s worth bearing in mind how unfortunately correlative much of psychology, sports science and the like are. We are rabid pattern seekers.

2.   Focussing on the minuscule number of the very best in a search for the “why?” is misguided because chance, genetics and circumstance are going to trump everything, IMO. I think a lot more can be learnt by looking at achievement at the mid-high end. Probably in the >8c neck of the woods.

3.   It’s interesting to me that this debate is being had at all – I think that the rise of comps as a major component of the climbing game has heraded a shift towards professionalism and competitiveness in the sport more generally.       

[Johnny Brown]

You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers

My god, the irony! From the man who started all this by having a pop at one of Britain's brightest young talents. How do you motivate your sales force, threat of dismissal? When young climbers ask me for advice I give it based on what might help them enjoy a lifetime of the wonderful diversity climbing has to offer. Not some cod-psychology that might possibly engender a competitive winning mindset.

The effect is named after the Greek myth of Pygmalion. Pygmalion was a sculptor who fell in love with a statue he had carved.

On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.

[Sloper]

Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).

If you look at sports where people are pushed, coached and compete you'll find for every 'winner' there are hundreds of losers who end up hating the game, stopping playing it and being damaged by the whole process (there will be a few who carry on for the love it it, but not many).

How many competitive swimmers, gymnasts (who don't make it) and so on are still participating in their late 20's (not exactly a ripe old age), how many people who love tennis, golf and so on who are good but not 'elite' enjoy their sport into their 60s or beyond.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ok, despite my negativity with regards to the realms of the possible, which is blue sky thinking and speculation.

I'm new to the Coaching/wall running thing (or at least it's been 20 years since I was last involved) and I lived overseas from 91 until 2008 (and even then I was commuting to France, Italy and Spain two or three times a month and not climbing much here, until 2013).

But I'm trying hard to develop the scene here in the Bay and encourage kids into the sport.
And getting a lot of shit for it!

If I start listing the incidents, then it's too obvious who I'm talking about.

But, the anti-Sport/Bouldering league is endemic, vitriolic and aggressive.
I don't recall or know of any Sport climbers/Equippers who treat it as some kind of religious crusade, but can point to many Choppers who do.

My conjecture, to your assertion, Gme; is that there is not enough encouragement for young climbers.
Sloper makes a very valid point in terms of the socio-economic dynamic and the points mentioned by all the other commentators on this thread are all valid (for a given value of "valid").

And it matters not how hard I personally climb (and my days of climbing anything of any interest are long gone), I still remember how it felt to try bitd and see my guys training and pushing themselves every day.
So I give them free training and encouragement.

And actually get hate mail for it.

Now, it may be a very different environment up north, I admit I've not been t'peak these 20 years past, so I don't know how it feels to be there.

My (very, very mild) ire was raised a little on the original thread, slightly, by Dave's "who or what" comment (have I made it clear how minor I mean that to sound)?
But I know how your comments were perceived by Jim and his peers, because it has been much discussed across Farcebook and Twatter and amongst the young guys at work. (They think UKB are bunch of old farts).

I get where you are going with it.

I agree.

I'm sorry my worries about physical limitations have given you the impression I think it's all pointless (don't just tell me we haven't gone anywhere near as far as we can go, tell me why you think it, suggest how we can do it. Because I'll be right behind any viable strategy and you are better at that than me).

I believe you cannot have the stick without a bloody good carrot and I'm struggling to find that carrot.

[Sasquatch]

Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).

If you look at sports where people are pushed, coached and compete you'll find for every 'winner' there are hundreds of losers who end up hating the game, stopping playing it and being damaged by the whole process (there will be a few who carry on for the love it it, but not many).

How many competitive swimmers, gymnasts (who don't make it) and so on are still participating in their late 20's (not exactly a ripe old age), how many people who love tennis, golf and so on who are good but not 'elite' enjoy their sport into their 60s or beyond.

In fairness most of the tennis/golf/etc are people who started as adults, likely long after the "competitive" window. 

And while I've no idea on gymnasts, we have an active and robust masters swimming program locally with competitions and such, so that doesn't seem all that different to me.  There are also loads who swim for exercise and enjoy it much like those who go play tennis, but don't ever compete.  Rambling and disjointed, but I'd say there's not much difference in sport types.  I played competitive soccer into college.  Got burnt out and didn't play for close to 10 years (also fell in love with climbing so that filled the spot instead).  Came back into it and enjoy playing again. 

I'd guess that many of the "losers" ended up in a sport they were good at and derived joy from winning, rather than playing.  Then when they hit their peak and weren't winning easily the enjoyment faded and they quit.  But I've ne real idea.  I know many of our local kids go through the climbing team and move into other sports in college.  they climbed as a reasult of the socail group, rather than personal love for it. 

[thekettle]

Oldmanmatt I'm genuinely shocked by the grief you seem to be getting for trying to motivate and inspire younger climbers. If I wasn't at the other end of the country (Cumbria) I'd freely offer my coaching time to help sort this out.
If you want any info and [evidence based] reading on fostering motivation in young people, PM me.
John

[joel182]

You should offer your motivational services to the BMC for all the young climbers and tell them not to bother trying to get really good at sports climbing as they have no chance. All our crags are shit, it always rains, we were just lucky before and no one is interested anyway. Not particularly helpful.

But that's really not what people are trying to say here! The way I see it, the argument isn't that climbing hard sport in the UK is impossible. After all, I'm pretty sure that everyone here agrees it's possible to climb hard sport in the UK? The argument seems to be that a variety of factors act together to make it harder for the UK to produce people who climb hard sport when compared to places like France and Spain.

[mrjonathanr]

I know how your comments were perceived by Jim and his peers, because it has been much discussed across Farcebook and Twatter and amongst the young guys at work. (They think UKB are bunch of old farts).

Not so daft, then.

[Oldmanmatt]

There is already quite a lot of "stick" available.

Surely it's not the place of the "media" to provide it?

A coach, yes.

Mates, yep.

Peers? Definitely.

But any perceived negativity, made publicly, can be detrimental and discouraging for an individual. A youngster even more so.

So, the UKB debating society has been arguing the point "This house believes that undue media/public hype of mediocre achievement is holding back British sport climbing standards".

Whilst missing the irony, that a Mod of the second largest forum of the said media/public, did not know who the catalyst for the whole debate was. Had not heard any hype prior to that point and the catalyst went on to prove some merit at competition, within a week.

It maybe part of the problem, but it is not THE problem.

[Oldmanmatt]

Oldmanmatt I'm genuinely shocked by the grief you seem to be getting for trying to motivate and inspire younger climbers. If I wasn't at the other end of the country (Cumbria) I'd freely offer my coaching time to help sort this out.
If you want any info and [evidence based] reading on fostering motivation in young people, PM me.
John

That was written while I was typing.
I'll pm you, for sure. Ta.

[Stu Littlefair]

Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).

It's a point of view I've heard, but never from anyone who's actually climbed grade x. I wonder what that means.

[Doylo]

Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!

On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.

Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.

[cofe]

Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!

On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.

Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.

Bennett.

[gme]

Wtf jb why the massive personal attack. I knew that you wouldn't agree with me on this and have kind of hinted so right from the off.
First I didn't start the subject of whether Jim popes ascent was newsworthy that was the owner if the site. I also went out of my way to try to make sure it wasn't an attack on him. I don't need to bully kids two years older than my own son to get my rocks off.
I then proceeded to isolate this conversation from the original thread to distance it as for once I wanted to have a relatively serious conversation into something. I took time to write both my original post and response and all went well until you posted a half assed attempt at dismissing me and my idea of  "hotpot" eh!
I then have a little go back only using ideas such as uninspiring crags , shit weather and an anomaly  all of which have been mentioned on this thread and suddenly you have a totally personal go at me.  My slightly factious post only underlined how I thought all of these points would not help motivate people to want to try to get really good.
I was aware that you have issues with sports climbing and the idea that it is some how wrong to want to treat our pastime as a sport but I didn't realise that you were so fucked up over it. And wtf did the school ever do to you.
Thanks for basically fucking up what was a reasonable thread.
You have issues.

[Doylo]

Yeah the threads not about pottering about diversifying it's about smashing big numbers!

On the other hand, maybe it does explain why the School never produced any winners.

Moon, Moffatt, Sellars, Smith.

Bennett.

Seb Grieve 

[Danny]

Absolutely spot on JB, it may come as a shock to some, but there's more to life than climbing x grade or y (or indeed why).

It's a point of view I've heard, but never from anyone who's actually climbed grade x. I wonder what that means.

Actually, I think that's something you hear from those at the very top quite often.

[gme]

And sloper. As a legal man you should read the facts through. I said from the very beginning that it was about performance climbing. Nothing wrong with anyone enjoying climbing in what ever form, style or grade they wish. We all do it for fun but is it not possible that driving yourself to tick high numbers could be more fun for some than being an average all rounder.

[Doylo]

We also have climbers with the potential to climb in the 9's but seemingly without the motivation. I've little doubt Bransby and Ed Hamer could climb 9a/+ if they really wanted too but the mindset to specialise that much isn't present. 

[petejh]

Maybe they're just as shit at training as you 

[gme]

We also have climbers with the potential to climb in the 9's but seemingly without the motivation. I've little doubt Bransby and Ed Hamer could climb 9a/+ if they really wanted too but the mindset to specialise that much isn't present.

My point entirely. I think the pool of talent here is massive but for some reason the motivation to do the hardest routes is not there. And I feel the media and general attitude of uk climbers doesn't help. Everyone needs there egos massaging when you can get this done by doing averagely hard routes the reward/effort ratio to do really hard routes may make it all not seem worth it.

[chris j]

But I'm trying hard to develop the scene here in the Bay and encourage kids into the sport.
And getting a lot of shit for it!

You seem to be doing a reasonable job - on my odd visits down the Cove this summer I've been impressed how the local youth have been ripping it up on Ferocity Wall...

[chris j]

But in the spirit of the thread Matt, don't let the kids think they're too good else they'll never get anywhere... (try and make them all think they can be better than Ellis for starters )