[Johnny Brown]

i agreed trad had effected it in my second post.

Well yes of course. But you seem to think limited ambitions is more important though? I think it's irrelevant by the time you consider the distractions of trad, bouldering, big walls etc.

Like a lot of people he got into bouldering during its boom in the late 90s put up some of our hardest boulder problems including a couple of traverses that were among the hardest bits of climbing in the world at the time and repeated what was at the time the hardest boulder problem in the world. So he did go on from Hubble

Agreed, But but not in sport. He inspired a lot of the current stars, who've done similarly. Again, you can't treat sport in isolation.

My beef is also the pejorative terms you're using. I think sport gets the attention it merits in the UK. We don't have that much and we aren't currently excelling - so not much press. The media haven't shouted down sport climbing as not real since the nineties. UKC trolls may still do so - I don't pay them enough attention to know. Getting (over)excited for trad is not the same as shouting down sport. There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate. No conspiracy. I can't see how suppressing news of up-and-coming youth doing 8b is going to help?

how this could put someone off sacrificing, time, money and effort into training in gym for 12/24/36 months to get to there peak level to do a properly hard route only for the media to report things much easier with the same level of excitement

Well the appropriate level of excitement is entirely down to your perspective. People get excited by what they can relate to. Tom and Pete took a huge gamble that that level of training for US wide cracks would be worth it. They took a photographer and film maker and it was. Who can say if what they did is much easier or that they'd been 'put off' working towards a Spanish 9a+ that ends at a higher belay than the 8c+ they did last year? What press did Mickey get for climbing 8C (was it?) in Rocklands? Enough? He didn't seem to get much sponsorship... it's not just sport. Climbing has always rewarded personality as much as success. That's life.

I think in '95 sport was the blue riband event and that was that - it was what counted, what most folk did and was arguably easier to understand. Bouldering hadn't taken over as the 100m sprint equivalent. Post Akira, Chilam Bilam, (not accepted) Es Pontas etc (not graded), Simpson (not believed) and the Ondra era etc etc it's harder to know what the hardest or to see it's relevance to UK climbers. Whereas the appeal of free climbing El Cap is obvious and imho requires a wider set of skills. How easily they are gained you could debate...

(1) Do the cream of British climbing youth get into sport-climbing as opposed to other climbing disciplines?

(2) Do the British underperform in sport climbing versus comparable nations in terms of population, funding, climbing participant population?

Good summary. 1 - yes. Most of the guys I climb with started out indoors in the sport-soaked atmosphere of the mid-nineties. 2 - yes - but just in sport. Because once they left home and got cars the world opened up a fair bit and they diversified into other areas of climbing. Other nations are less likely to. I haven't seen much to convince me that the current bunch will be any different.

Not sure you're equivalence is too good since the current top sports routes are heavily dominated by only 2 climbers

Including Akira in 95 would make a big difference. You could consider 95/6 a period of consolidation - how would 90 compare? Two climbers out ahead again? Further ahead than was thought at the time too - you have to remember grades are far from an exact science and consensus requires quantity, which by definition doesn't exist at the top.

[gme]

Bouldering and sports climbing are intrinsically linked, the first is required to get really good at the later, i already said that. Bouldering and big walls are not.

We will never agree on any other point in this conversation due to your heavily slanted view of what is more deserving of praise. You think that sports climbing gets as much publicity as it deserves and i cant see you changing your opinion. You constantly confirm what i think but without even knowing it with comments like "There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate". Which kind of takes me back round to why do we not have more to celebrate in UK sports climbing.

Back around again. But i cant be bothered.

Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame. If we continue down that path things will stay the same which is a shame.

[Johnny Brown]

FFS, I thought we were getting somewhere for a minute. Try reading what I wrote instead of what you think I mean.

There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate

A while back you said you didn't follow trad climbing. Uk climbers are doing very well at trad climbing on a world stage. Uk sport climbers are not - the point of this thread is it not? Hence 'more to celebrate'. What I care about or what you care about is not relevant.

The young climbers vote with their feet and don't seem to concentrate on sport any more. If they had current heroes maybe they would. But surely reporting what little does get done is better than no sport in the news?

[Muenchener]

Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame.

I somehow overlooked the bit where anybody said anything even faintly resembling that.

It has been pointed out that many uk climbers choose to pursue other avenues than hard sport climbing, and in some cases are definitely world class at those other things. How is this denigrating sport climbing? Perhaps it reduces the potential pool of people who might otherwise have gone on to become top sport climbers, perhaps it doesn't, but either way I feel to see how it's automatically a bad thing.

You seem to me to arguing/assuming the exact opposite: that sport climbing is better and more justified than other forms of climbing and somebody like Hazel F is wasting her talent / setting a bad example to the youth.

[Johnny Brown]

Well thank god for that I thought it was me for a minute.

[gme]

You misunderstand me. I agree that we don't have much to celebrate in sports climbing, hence why we report minor ascents, and we do have major ascents to report on in the trad world.

One of the major reasons i feel we dont  have much to celebrate in sports climbing because climbers and the media fail to perceive the difference between hard and really hard and therefore we have set the bar too low, and this level is not worth reporting when compared to world standards.

Discuss

We seem to be going round in circles.

[gme]

Unfortunately the topic has gone very much UKC re trad is better and more justified than sports climbing which is a shame.

I somehow overlooked the bit where anybody said anything even faintly resembling that.

It has been pointed out that many uk climbers choose to pursue other avenues than hard sport climbing, and in some cases are definitely world class at those other things. How is this denigrating sport climbing? Perhaps it reduces the potential pool of people who might otherwise have gone on to become top sport climbers, perhaps it doesn't, but either way I feel to see how it's automatically a bad thing.

You seem to me to arguing/assuming the exact opposite: that sport climbing is better and more justified than other forms of climbing and somebody like Hazel F is wasting her talent / setting a bad example to the youth.

I have not said anything of the sort, i have agreed that the UK has a focus on trad climbing in my posts and have never once said sports climbing is better.

I give up.

[nai]

Did Malc (or anyone else for that matter) simply "get into bouldering" or did he find himself  with a job, limited time to train and living nearer to bouldering areas with potential to develop new lines.

Ben & Jerry were sponsored weren't they and climbed full-time?  Pretty sure Jerry was at least.  And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb.  Would that explain why standards were so high overall?

Has any UK climber since been supported to the same degree as Ben & Jerry?  Steve holds down a job and family doesn't he?

[Jaspersharpe]

And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb.  Would that explain why standards were so high overall?

It was more the "Enterprise Allowance" than the dole (or purely "signing on") that had such a positive effect on UK climbing in the late 80s. But yes.

[Johnny Brown]

climbers and the media fail to perceive the difference between hard and really hard and therefore we have set the bar too low, and this level is not worth reporting when compared to world standards

Or not that they don't know the difference, but that no one is climbing really hard. So nothing to report. Would you really prefer sport wasn't reported at all? Or is there a particular ascent you think wasn't given its due?

have never once said sports climbing is better

Ah, but we all we know how you really feel.

[Footwork]

And the 80s scene was fuelled by the UK's high unemployment and so many young climbers choosing to sign on and just climb.  Would that explain why standards were so high overall?

It was more the "Enterprise Allowance" than the dole (or purely "signing on") that had such a positive effect on UK climbing in the late 80s. But yes.

Also didn't you only have to sign on once every 2 weeks? Strong and adventurous Leeds climbers would hitch to Scotland to go winter climbing then hitch back down to sign on. Nowadays they make you keep an online diary that you have to update every day to prove you're 'searching' for work. It would be much harder to do that these days (the winter climbing)

[nai]

Yes it was sign on every two weeks, giro arrived 2 days later so effectively 12 days in between.  I think they asked if had you been looking for work and had you done any work paid or unpaid, a Yes and a No, sign your name and that's you til next time.

[Falling Down]

Off topic but I remember signing on for GME and Cupboard when they were in France.

[Johnny Brown]

There's an interesting bit in (I think) Deep Play by Paul Pritchard, where he talks about the levels of unemployment and the morality of removing oneself from the competition for the few jobs available.

[petejh]

Yes it was sign on every two weeks, giro arrived 2 days later so effectively 12 days in between.  I think they asked if had you been looking for work and had you done any work paid or unpaid, a Yes and a No, sign your name and that's you til next time.

'Project Management'.

Easy life compared to today. Reminds me of the EI (Employment Insurance) they used to get in Canada, not sure if they still have the same scheme (Habrich?) - Basically a dole scheme that's banded based on how much you were earning prior to 'losing your job' (in reality, prior to leaving your highly-paid summer tree planting job for a winter of alpine/mixed climbing). 6 months of work / 6 months of EI. Easy life, designed for climbers.

[petejh]

There's an interesting bit in (I think) Deep Play by Paul Pritchard, where he talks about the levels of unemployment and the morality of removing oneself from the competition for the few jobs available.

  Moral justification for doing fuck-all but climb. What a hero. 'Leave me, save yourselves!'

[Johnny Brown]

  Great innit?

[Jaspersharpe]

Basher mentions the Enterprise Allowance in Char's video about Mecca, and how back then you could sign on by post.

[bendavison]

There is more press given to trad climbing because there is more to celebrate

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to trad, so sorry if this is sounds either offensive or stupid, but I don't really know how UK trad compares to the stuff abroad and how our trad achievements compare to our sport ones on their respective scales of difficulty. For example, I don't really know how a repeat of Captain Invincible or Equilibrium compares to Recovery Drink (Nico Favresse' route in Greenland I think... I recall hearing 8c+/9a trad?) and where they sit on the 'trad' scale.

So can anyone in the know try and compare just how world class we are at trad compared to sport? Are repeats of 20 odd year old trad routes any more impressive than repeats of 20 odd year old sport routes? Because that's sort of where it seems like the majority of hard climbers in the UK are at, barring a few harder FA in both disciplines.

As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.

Sorry for being slightly off topic.

[petejh]

...
So can anyone in the know try and compare just how world class we are at trad compared to sport? Are repeats of 20 odd year old trad routes any more impressive than repeats of 20 odd year old sport routes?

Bloody hell, batten down the hatches...

http://youtu.be/VJ3j5jp5IoY?t=1s

[bendavison]

Might be a stretch...

How does UK trad/trad ascents by UK climbers compare to the rest of the world then? Leading the pack?

[Stubbs]

As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.

Ben I guess this comes back to being able to tell stories as JB eluded to earlier; it makes for more of an article returning to a wall where you very nearly died a decade before to repeat one of the seminal trad routes of the UK. Compared to this going on a diet and doing a lot of deadhanging lacks a certain amount of interest for the masses!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736

[bendavison]

As an example, Caff repeated The Big Bang, 9a and has openly admitted that it took a lot of effort over a period of months. He then repeated Indian Face in an afternoon? Maybe two? I'm pretty sure that the latter was more celebrated despite this.

Ben I guess this comes back to being able to tell stories as JB eluded to earlier; it makes for more of an article returning to a wall where you very nearly died a decade before to repeat one of the seminal trad routes of the UK. Compared to this going on a diet and doing a lot of deadhanging lacks a certain amount of interest for the masses!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63370

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5736

You mean most people aren't interested in deadhanging? What do they do in their spare time then? 

That is a good point. I've certainly had more people interested in how I injured myself in Norway rather than what I climbed there. Good interviews and videos etc do go a good way to making sport ascents more interesting, people do seem interested in the process.

[Stubbs]

Exactly! Although Flatanger certainly lends itself to more interesting sports vids than a lot of venues.  Imagine the article you'll be able to write about your ascent of Little Badder next year, you should make a Rocky style montage of your recovery!

[Muenchener]

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to trad, so sorry if this is sounds either offensive or stupid, but I don't really know how UK trad compares to the stuff abroad

I'll take the bait - flame me as an ignorant punter if you like

I personally wasn't thinking so much about repeats of twenty year old British routes, and I understand the general irritation at Indian Face Syndrome. But I have the impression that Pete and Tom are going around other countries repeating & putting up cutting edge routes, and that Hazel is in the top handful of international lady tradders.

See also Caff & Co on the Salathe - ok freed 20-odd years ago but still doesn't get done every week, so at least a bit newsworthy. There are plenty of 15 to 20 year old sport routes, repeats of which still seem to be at least somewhat newsworthy too: Realisation, AD, Hubble etc.